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Post by westender on Apr 11, 2012 10:22:21 GMT -1
Depends on the quality of what you've got to delegate to; and if you weren't responsible for that, then my bitter experience is it does lead to loss of control. That's just nonsense ;D Erm. My experience is not nonsense. If you're in a position to delegate, you're in a position to require certain standards of your delegatees. Not if you weren't responsible for recruiting them you're not, which is what I said. But then that might just require some unpaid hours to keep tabs. Then that's not delegation, is it? If you're having to keep tabs then you haven't delegated. Which is one of the reasons why, if one has to do the 9 to 5, academia is my preferred territory in which to do it. One can at least expect that certain basic standards are the norm.... Absolute NONSENSE! ;D I think anyone here with any experience of public sector versus private sector would completely disagree. Public sector workers, in the main, earn more than their compadres in the private sector. It ain't about the money, which is also one of the reasons for my preferred choice. Yer average academic'd run away screaming, Deliverance-style, if required to work more than their utterly taxing 4 hours a day. Now that, I know to be absolute nonsense. Most academics in higher education in my experience are immersed in their work or their research. They're never actually off the job. It's their life. In academia in my experience, it ain't about the money and it ain't about the hours, it's about loftier ideals; which is why it's my preferred choice. Call me a snob... but that's not to say it's about loftier ideals for me, I'm not an academic; but a uni's basic raison d'etre is the kind of environment I prefer to be in. I don't think that's snobbery. That's not to say the academics are angels, either... far, far from it. Many are loonies. What, like them in the postal service who seemingly can't ensure a letter gets from point A to point B? Seems to me nobody's livelihood depends on providing any of that anymore, since there is incompetence, incomprehension, carelessness, sloth and ineptitude absolutely everywhere. As I said in my earlier post, it seems to me that the basic standards you're talking about - standards that we all used to be able to take for granted - are increasingly flying out the window. Anyone who wants to or tries to do a good job is largely wasting their time. Then pity the poor academics, whose lives & lifes' work, who work for the benefit of all, are being increasingly impinged upon by idiotic managerial beancounting morons who have not the faintest clue about the world they have no business inhabiting. I'm meeting an academic compadre tomorrow who was in the year above me in Wasters Corner in the QM and we will very probably spend the whole time weepin and mournin about what is happening to our alma mater, and to education generally.
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Post by westender on Apr 11, 2012 12:08:34 GMT -1
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Post by Sir Henry Rawlinson on Apr 11, 2012 18:46:26 GMT -1
A postal related anecdote.
The first time I came to Scotlkand to visit was around 6 years ago. We stayed with a friend of the Mrs. One sunday morning the radio was on. Jonatan Ross I think. He was spouting on about a poet who wrote many letters which he then threw out of his first floor room window and relied on passers by to pick it up and put it in the post.
Later that day we went to St Mungo's museum and saw the Dali painting of the big yin nailed up a bit. I bought a postcard of it for my daughter. Wrote it, and put a stamp on it. And duly lost it somewhere in Sauchiehalle St.
3 days later. Call from daughter- Card had arrived with a note from a Rangers supporter saying he shouldn't really forward it, but he liked her name !
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Post by notanimby on Apr 11, 2012 18:53:48 GMT -1
A postal related anecdote. The first time I came to Scotlkand to visit was around 6 years ago. We stayed with a friend of the Mrs. One sunday morning the radio was on. Jonatan Ross I think. He was spouting on about a poet who wrote many letters which he then threw out of his first floor room window and relied on passers by to pick it up and put it in the post. Later that day we went to St Mungo's museum and saw the Dali painting of the big yin nailed up a bit. I bought a postcard of it for my daughter. Wrote it, and put a stamp on it. And duly lost it somewhere in Sauchiehalle St. 3 days later. Call from daughter- Card had arrived with a note from a Rangers supporter saying he shouldn't really forward it, but he liked her name ! How sweet.......... Bit different frae ma "related" tale. Came home from work one day to find a whole heap (well about a dozen) letters for various addresses put through our letterbox. Stuck some in correct hooses nearby, put the rest in local post box. A couple of days later I was off on holiday, was oot cutting the grass when the postman came along (not usual guy) told him about it and he says to me "aye 'ats right, got tae your hoose and it started phishing down, so ah thought, ah fuck this and stuck everything in your letterbox" Ah wiz so speechless ah jist stood there wae ma chin drapped.
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Post by ozneil on Apr 11, 2012 20:08:05 GMT -1
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2012 21:28:05 GMT -1
Rolo said; If you're in a position to delegate, you're in a position to require certain standards of your delegatees.Westie said; Not if you weren't responsible for recruiting them you're not, which is what I said. No no no! That sounds like defeatism and blame shifting, imho! If you're the boss of a task, you're in charge and you work with what you have and gently instil in your team how you would like the task to be done. Speak softly but carry a big stick, as someone wise said here recently Anyways, most people are not entirely crap ;D. Everyone has something to offer and the skill of a manager is bringing those qualities out, isn't it? If you're in a position to delegate, you're a manager. So manage! ;D My argument with your argument is simply that some professions are somehow protected, while others-- outwith public service-- stand or fall, by dint of exacting standards in the non-academic world. I'd like to see all academics--like all career politicians--spend a few formative years actually working in the real world. I get CVs on a weekly basis from people with 10-12 years worth of degrees but not a scooby whatsofeckingever about existing in the world. BTW, I spotted Prof Paddy O Donnell in Waitrose earlier. Far be it from me to suggest he was 'off the job'... I'm certain he wasn't just buying something for his tea, surveying the psychology of retail marketing more like. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by ozneil on Apr 11, 2012 22:11:52 GMT -1
I find most "Academic" staff in my field are several years behind what is done in "the Field". We had to re-teach our cadets. I had one Chinese guy, ended up as a partner, who used to say "This is the way we were taught at Kindie (uni) now how do you do it?"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2012 23:10:00 GMT -1
Same here Oz. It's not a lack of brain capacity, more a severe lack of recognising what's going on outwith the hallowed, sheltered halls of academia. I don't know about your field but in mine, day in day out, we're deluged by survey requests from academics consulting those of us who're actually fecking well delivering, rather than theorising. I'm not usually of a mind to co-operate, frankly Why would I hand over the detail of 35 years of solid hard work (and personal risk) in the private sector to those who want to piggyback off it and take credit? My dear friend the Prof @ Glasgow's Music Dept just got half a mill of research money to write a book about the unionisation of the music industry past and present. Well, fine and OK (and I adore the man cos he's great-- and he'll no doubt treat me to a few nice riojas at Wur Chip on the proceeds) but at the same time.......gimme £600 grand to invest in new music talent and I'll guarantee you I'd put it to FAR better use. I think it's cried leverage. Entrepreneurship even. A fact lost on the vast majority of public sector employees who bleat about their terms and conditions with nae fucking knowledge at all about how it ACTUALLY is. And who risk fuck all but give it entitlement because they're SMART, don't you know <oops, slight rant there, pardon me for not genuflecting in deference to wur worthy academics.............. >
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Post by ozneil on Apr 12, 2012 0:21:07 GMT -1
We had one academic who wanted to come into my office to ensure that his students were getting adequate practical experience. Apparently my 2 word response to his questionnaire wasnt considered appropriate and he wanted to check up. He was told he was welcome to come in any time that was suitable to my cadets provided it was outwith working hours. He never appeared. Both cadets got their degrees one with Honours
btw the words werent what you were thinking they were "All aspects"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2012 16:33:57 GMT -1
[ Then pity the poor academics, whose lives & lifes' work, who work for the benefit of all, are being increasingly impinged upon by idiotic managerial beancounting morons who have not the faintest clue about the world they have no business inhabiting. I'm meeting an academic compadre tomorrow who was in the year above me in Wasters Corner in the QM and we will very probably spend the whole time weepin and mournin about what is happening to our alma mater, and to education generally. I meant to ask, Westie, what is upsetting you about our alma mater? I'm genuinely interested to know; as an ex-student, ma to a current one, and auld auntie to half a dozen more. Should I be worried?
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Post by ozneil on Apr 17, 2012 21:34:37 GMT -1
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Post by westender on May 1, 2012 20:03:22 GMT -1
I meant to ask, Westie, what is upsetting you about our alma mater? I'm genuinely interested to know; as an ex-student, ma to a current one, and auld auntie to half a dozen more. Should I be worried? You've known me this long and you have to ask?? Don't get me started!! They're letting in weans whose school exams were a dumbed down nonsense (compared to ours) and consequently whose reading, writing, grammar and counting are not up to scratch; they're taking in language students who are too embarrassed to speak the language, they're indulging kids who see nothing wrong in plagiarism - and who expect to be allowed to do it, get away with it, and not get either marked down or expelled for it. They're letting in folk who expect - nay, demand - to be spoonfed, who don't understand what real study is, whose money the uni wants at all and any cost - and so the courses are being dumbed down to accommodate the eejits who aren't up to scratch. They're letting in kids who have no idea what an essay is or how to write one; kids who can't concentrate; kids whose priorities and expectations have ensured that the uni library is now, on every floor, more like a damn coffee shop than a library. And that's just the state of the students. But the people who manage our universities nowadays are a bigger dismay and a bigger worry. All they care about is making money. Their priorities are all wrong. The core work of our universities is being degraded and demeaned by the utterly pinbrained, bureaucratic, inept, mediocre beancounters that have taken over their management in the last 2 decades. Thatcher's greedy babies have come home to roost: having had their grants for their education, and having had the right to do no paid work for the duration of their studies because it was the right and proper thing that society should support them while they concentrate on their studies...they're pulling up the drawbridge. I could go on. And on, and on. I've seen it and heard it and observed it and grieved over it, with those who've been in it since before me and who know fine well what has happened and what is happening but who dare not make their feelings known in public. Most of them are keeping their heads down, biding their time and waiting for the redundancy package or retirement. And drinking too, too much. The simple fact is, the kids you know who are there now are getting nothing like the quality of education they could and should be getting - and that our generation had access to. It's now all about the money, and so long as all who're there can pay and are paying, all shall have prizes. That is SO not the way it should be. I have a love/hate, pride/shame relationship with the alma mater these days. Those latter two make me very angry and very depressed.
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Post by bormes on May 2, 2012 6:49:56 GMT -1
Great truths written by westy I know and employed many who do not have the education that our generation had in a senior secondary, yet they were in last year of Uni. Target driven crap and don't think it was all t's fault, bliar and his greedy coven had THIRTEEN years to sort it, and he just made it WORSE with targets!!
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2012 19:47:38 GMT -1
You've known me this long and you have to ask?? Don't get me started!! They're letting in weans whose school exams were a dumbed down nonsense (compared to ours) and consequently whose reading, writing, grammar and counting are not up to scratch; they're taking in language students who are too embarrassed to speak the language, they're indulging kids who see nothing wrong in plagiarism - and who expect to be allowed to do it, get away with it, and not get either marked down or expelled for it. They're letting in folk who expect - nay, demand - to be spoonfed, who don't understand what real study is, whose money the uni wants at all and any cost - and so the courses are being dumbed down to accommodate the eejits who aren't up to scratch. They're letting in kids who have no idea what an essay is or how to write one; kids who can't concentrate; kids whose priorities and expectations have ensured that the uni library is now, on every floor, more like a damn coffee shop than a library. And that's just the state of the students. But the people who manage our universities nowadays are a bigger dismay and a bigger worry. All they care about is making money. Their priorities are all wrong. The core work of our universities is being degraded and demeaned by the utterly pinbrained, bureaucratic, inept, mediocre beancounters that have taken over their management in the last 2 decades. Thatcher's greedy babies have come home to roost: having had their grants for their education, and having had the right to do no paid work for the duration of their studies because it was the right and proper thing that society should support them while they concentrate on their studies...they're pulling up the drawbridge. I could go on. And on, and on. I've seen it and heard it and observed it and grieved over it, with those who've been in it since before me and who know fine well what has happened and what is happening but who dare not make their feelings known in public. Most of them are keeping their heads down, biding their time and waiting for the redundancy package or retirement. And drinking too, too much. The simple fact is, the kids you know who are there now are getting nothing like the quality of education they could and should be getting - and that our generation had access to. It's now all about the money, and so long as all who're there can pay and are paying, all shall have prizes. That is SO not the way it should be. I have a love/hate, pride/shame relationship with the alma mater these days. Those latter two make me very angry and very depressed. Ach. I agree with you about the layers and layers of managers and administrators of course. So much now is just about money and not excellence. And I completely agree about the withdrawal of support in terms of student grants. I suspect you're right about senior academics keeping their traps shut and playing a waiting game till retirement. In fact I have an example; my previous Philosophy professor who finally retired recently, and now divides his time between political writing for an online newspaper and composing music. I also have a few lecturer friends in the Music Dept, unsurprisingly, and there are concerns about other establishments taking over their role. Over our dead bodies I'm not going to agree wi you so readily over the quality of the students though. Glasgow's in a position to handpick. You now need four As for arts and social sciences, and a young friend of mine with 5 As at Higher and predicted 3 As in Advanced Higher has not got into medicine at Glasgow. Her elder brother, now in second year, got in with just that. Kids at that level can write essays, Westie! ;D Yes, there are a few that need remedial teaching in First Year on grammar and spelling, I grant you--but a minority. Not their fault. Finally (gasp) the Library, don't start me and this is a legitimate concern. The wean's at the end of her rope and so are all her mates. So many issues going on there; from people baggying seats early in the day, (like Germans putting towels on the loungers at 6am), then not appearing for hours, taking up precious resources that others could be using. Too few computers and especially printers for the amount of students. AND, AND, get this...........last week a bunch of Chinese kids arrived complete with bags of food from the supermarket PLUS a wee two ring cooker and proceeded to make their dinner....in the fecking LIBRARY. I thought the wean was having me on ;D That all said, Glasgow made the top ten in a recent survey of Best Student Experience. The wean did a couple of exams in the Hunter Hall last week and came home exhausted but still wi the energy to tell me how utterly utterly beautiful it was working in such surrounds. Plus she's proud she sees her family name on the gates every single day Sadly another branch of the family but dinnae tell her...
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