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Post by ozneil on Jul 3, 2014 20:29:35 GMT -1
Agree with most of that OZ, except I do think that the UK WOULD come to the aid of OZ and NZ if there was a problem. I can think of scenarios where Oz could be invaded, I must say I HOPE that will NEVER happen!! I would hope so but your record on that score isnt that great. Churchill refused to release 2 divisions from North Africa when they were desperately needed here. Force was brought to bear and he reluctantly agreed. En route home he ordered them to go to Rangoon to stem the Jap advance on India. They would have got there just in time to surrender the divisions had no heavy equipment. The convoy actually changed course for Burma. Brits were told if the order was not countermanded the troops would take over ships. The order was countermanded. Would have been intersting to see what would have happened What would the escort have done? Then Wilsons famous nothing East of Suez Speech We tended to lose trust in UK. When the chips are down the only country we can really rely on is NZ so we need a powerful deterrent -------------------------- Nota you are being hypothetical which has nothing to do with reality. Iraq did not have nuclear weapons but did threaten to use WMD as it had against the Kurds.
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Post by notanimby on Jul 3, 2014 21:04:04 GMT -1
Looks as if the countries with nukes seem to be the ones who are the agressors, either themselves or by proxy.
Having nukes didn't stop the Falklands conflict, 9/11, and various other similar events.
So does that mean that every body should have nukes just in case any other country fancies a bit of an invasion, I mean fairs fair after all. Or is t only for the special ones?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 23:58:36 GMT -1
I'll ask you the question again and put it slightly differently, Oz. Would you be happy for your children and grandchildren to live within a 30 mile radius of a nuclear weapons site? The West of Scotland has had *TARGET* written all over it since I was a young child (because Westmonster didn't want Trident ANYWHERE NEAR their douce South East of England voting territory).. At primary school, in the height of the Cold War with Russia (Eastern bloc, much of which part of the EEC now....) we were terrified out of our tiny wits by continuous showings of the film 'Protect and Survive'. Let's just say I know to *protect* me and mine from incoming nuclear attack by hiding under the ktchn table Oh--- and of course, having a few tins of beans, a battery powered radio and a torch in the cupboard under the stairs.... Many of my generation still have nightmares about that particular threat, me included. We were brought up to FEAR the enemy, whoever the 'enemy' was.... Scotland has no pretensions to being a *world power*. We're not interested in world domination via threat. We'd like, I strongly believe, to go about our lives in peace and with some semblance f quality, contributing as we've always done and taking care of our own people and others, with a view to humanitarian aid where we can be of help. Removal of Trident from Scotland is one of the main reasons I decided to vote Yes for independence. I won't have that hideous threat visited on my or anyone else's weans. If Westmonster is SO fixated on the nuclear *deterrent* then let them house it on the Thames. To put the answer succinctly. I like living in a laid back, happy, prosperous country with a stable democratic government. I would like my kids, grandkids and Great grandkids (ger a move on Gkids!!!) to have the same. I do not want me or my descendants to live in a totalitarian country whether secular or religious ruled by invaders. If the price is having nuclear deterrents so be it ... Its a cheap price. I too would like to live in a laid-back, happy, prosperous country. It's what I want for my wean, all our weans and our grandkids... That is precisely why I'm voting YES. I want to live in a Scotland without nuclear weapons on our doorstep. Like you and Bormes I can't see any scenario in which an independent Scotland would be invaded/threatened. It's faintly ridiculous to even discuss two island nations like ours, Oz, being all of a sudden overwhelmed by 'invading forces'. Where do you imagine such forces would come from? Do you believe they'd creep up on us un=noticed? Have you no faith whatsoever in international diplomacy? Have a few militant fecks in headscarves scared the living daylights out of you? Proportion, ffs!
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Post by ozneil on Jul 4, 2014 0:45:15 GMT -1
I too would like to live in a laid-back, happy, prosperous country. It's what I want for my wean, all our weans and our grandkids... That is precisely why I'm voting YES. I want to live in a Scotland without nuclear weapons on our doorstep. Like you and Bormes I can't see any scenario in which an independent Scotland would be invaded/threatened. It's faintly ridiculous to even discuss two island nations like ours, Oz, being all of a sudden overwhelmed by 'invading forces'. Where do you imagine such forces would come from? Do you believe they'd creep up on us un=noticed? Have you no faith whatsoever in international diplomacy? Have a few militant fecks in headscarves scared the living daylights out of you? Proportion, ffs! Our 2 nations are totally different. Only similarity is democracy and speak roughly same language. I have no faith in diplomacy Its not the men wearing tea-towels that is the problem they will never amount to more than pin pricks and can be thumped back into stone-age if push comes to shove. Think China. Expanding navy, now have an aircraft carrier (why?) and flexing its considerable muscle in South China Sea No one, except US, could stop them if they decided to expand into the Pacific. They have population of 1.2 billion and rising... If they decide to move no amount of UN wailing and gnashing of teeth will stop them. Only the US Navy is big enough to stop them. If they attacked us we could blast huge holes in an invasion but eventually numbers would tell. A nice hefty deterrent would be nice So far they dont need too they are expanding by trade not war.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 1:06:12 GMT -1
Our 2 nations are totally different. Only similarity is democracy and speak roughly same language. I have no faith in diplomacy Its not the men wearing tea-towels that is the problem they will never amount to more than pin pricks and can be thumped back into stone-age if push comes to shove. Think China. Expanding navy, now have an aircraft carrier (why?) and flexing its considerable muscle in South China Sea No one, except US, could stop them if they decided to expand into the Pacific. They have population of 1.2 billion and rising... If they decide to move no amount of UN wailing and gnashing of teeth will stop them. Only the US Navy is big enough to stop them. If they attacked us we could blast huge holes in an invasion but eventually numbers would tell. A nice hefty deterrent would be nice So far they dont need too they are expanding by trade not war. If they decide to move and DO WHAT, PRECISELY? Impose their politics country by country all over the world by sending billions over to island nations concealed in aircraft carriers? Or a flotilla of tiny wee boats, undected by radar? WHAT? Maybe countless billions of Chinese will parachute in under cover of night and we'll all wake up finding our countries taken over by communists... The Chinese want to trade and (hopefully) better the living standards of their people. Which country on earth doesn't? Personally they'll not get my hard-earned till they improve their human rights record. Threat. Danger. Crisis. Catastrophe. Some men have SO little to think about. Leave the running of the world to women, We're team-workers not rutting stags...
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Post by ozneil on Jul 4, 2014 1:27:26 GMT -1
If China decides to take us over to get our riches and food as well as space for its millions they could do it quite blatantly. Apart from US no one is capable of stopping them.
Not by little boats but by a vast armada Sure we could knock chunks off them but numbers would prevail. We would see them coming but not a lot we could do about it. Once they have established air & sea supremacy they just walk in.
However they dont need to use force they can do it by trade.
I had out SMEG cook top repaired, The repair man was saying that the electronics in it are Chinese and the same parts are used in a large number of appliances irrespective of the label.
Our biggest numbers of migrants last year came from UK followed by China & India.
We expect an upsurge in UK migrant applications after September.
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Post by bormes on Jul 4, 2014 7:24:39 GMT -1
Truth in what Oz says, for example in the UK IF immigration continues from islamic countries the way it HAS in the past twenty years added to the amount already here, they WILL change our laws from the INSIDE. They dont need to invade. There WILL be enough to vote to change Parliament to make laws to suit what they want, whether it is wearing a Burqua to outlawing alcohol and gambling or wearing short skirts. Seems silly, if only it was? China could do in Oz what islam has done in the UK. The difference being, the Chinese manufacture all sorts unlike the islamic countries who seem only to be able to manufacture terror and bombs.
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Post by peony on Jul 4, 2014 13:06:13 GMT -1
We have an immigration problem from hell. Since October 52,000 kids (that's the known number) have crossed the southern border unaccompanied by an adult. Those are only the ones found. Our borders are so full of kids and women and preganant women that we are begging for help and money from the Feds. It's very bad.
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Post by notanimby on Jul 4, 2014 13:11:21 GMT -1
I too would like to live in a laid-back, happy, prosperous country. It's what I want for my wean, all our weans and our grandkids... That is precisely why I'm voting YES. I want to live in a Scotland without nuclear weapons on our doorstep. Like you and Bormes I can't see any scenario in which an independent Scotland would be invaded/threatened. It's faintly ridiculous to even discuss two island nations like ours, Oz, being all of a sudden overwhelmed by 'invading forces'. Where do you imagine such forces would come from? Do you believe they'd creep up on us un=noticed? Have you no faith whatsoever in international diplomacy? Have a few militant fecks in headscarves scared the living daylights out of you? Proportion, ffs! Our 2 nations are totally different. Only similarity is democracy and speak roughly same language. I have no faith in diplomacy Its not the men wearing tea-towels that is the problem they will never amount to more than pin pricks and can be thumped back into stone-age if push comes to shove. Think China. Expanding navy, now have an aircraft carrier (why?) and flexing its considerable muscle in South China SeaWhy shouldn't they want or indeed have an aircraft carrier?
Not that I'm condoning it, but why shouldn't they be " flexing its considerable muscle in South China Sea" after all the yanks have been doing it for years ( wae the Brits before them, even the Dutch, French and Portuguese too) it's not exactly any of them's back yard by a long wayNo one, except US, could stop them if they decided to expand into the Pacific. They have population of 1.2 billion and rising... If they decide to move no amount of UN wailing and gnashing of teeth will stop them. Only the US Navy is big enough to stop them. If they attacked us we could blast huge holes in an invasion but eventually numbers would tell. A nice hefty deterrent would be nice So far they dont need too they are expanding by trade not war.
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Post by ozneil on Jul 4, 2014 19:45:33 GMT -1
Nota commented
Why do they need a carrier?
As for flexing muscles, it is in someones back yard. They are claiming the Spratly and other Islands as their territory up till now they were part claimed by China, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia, Taiwan & the Philippines. There has been no shooting yet but naval boats have been playing Chicken.
Vietnam has always been scared of China that is why they are cozying up to US as has Taiwan.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 20:41:03 GMT -1
Depressing reading, this thread.
All I'm getting is fear, paranoia, fear, immigrants, fear, people who're not 'like us', fear, dread and an overwhelming notion that 'our ways' are the 'right ways'.
Are nuclear weapons and huge armies the answer to any of this?
I say not.
Western, so called 'civilised' society, has no more right to prevail over the world's population than anyone else. War-mongering, 'taking out' anyone who doesn't agree with us (when we don't all agree with each other!) is crazy mental talk.
Confrontational politics just doesn't work. It causes more wars than everything bar religion.
We have to be smarter than that.
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Post by ozneil on Jul 4, 2014 21:26:58 GMT -1
Depressing reading, this thread. All I'm getting is fear, paranoia, fear, immigrants, fear, people who're not 'like us', fear, dread and an overwhelming notion that 'our ways' are the 'right ways'. Are nuclear weapons and huge armies the answer to any of this? I say not. Western, so called 'civilised' society, has no more right to prevail over the world's population than anyone else. War-mongering, 'taking out' anyone who doesn't agree with us (when we don't all agree with each other!) is crazy mental talk. Confrontational politics just doesn't work. It causes more wars than everything bar religion. We have to be smarter than that. No you arent you are getting a whiff of reality. We havent the population to support large armed forces so we have to rely on other means. At the moment Treaties with friendly nations such as USA Now speaking for my country We have never invaded anyone nor do we ever intend too. If asked for help we give it. We will decide who comes here not some people smuggler. We take more than our fair share of refugees and legal migrants , numbers of each controlled so that we dont take more than can be assimilated properly at any given time. We dont give a damn what colour, religion or anything else a person might be provided they try and assimilate. The Chinese are excellent at assimilating some other races not so good Unfortunately other nations and cultures dont abide by these Your laudable standards and we have to look after ourselves. We dont say its the right way but we do say its our way and the way we like and we dont want it changed by an alien culture. We are not scared just prudent and self reliant. Your country, Europe and US are getting into strife with uncontrolled migration and it will get worse. Good God "No Go" areas in part of England. I notice the difference every time I visit and I dont like what I see.
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Post by bormes on Jul 4, 2014 21:46:00 GMT -1
Well said OZ I feel like that too about parts of England and I was there recently. The UK HAS changed and I can honestly say the areas I have visited have NOT been made better by islamic immigration. It has made a better place to live perhaps? For them, however it has brought down housing prices where they move into an area, it becomes dirty no curtains, dirty windows, litter and broken down cars and vans. Young men, scowling angry and challenging and they are going in droves to demand sharia law for the UK The above observations do not mean all Asian or islamic people are like that but it does mean in an uncontrolled system of immigration under labour and not much better now, it is too LATE to change things, we are on a downward spiral and it can only get worse. It will take a brave tough politician to even try to change things down south. In London when the Police Chief said 80 percent of street violence and crime was being done by black youths, there was an unholy outcry about him, the PC onanists wanted him sacked, sacked for telling the truth FFS. Like islam the black community are the ones who have to sort this out. It is not the job of our Police to nurse maid people, it is the family and civic leaders of immigrants who SHOULD be telling them to observe the laws of the country they live in, not encourage them in their religous zealots to have our laws changed. Like you Rolo, I am sick too of daily reading or hearing of people from ANY other country not behaving within our laws.
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Post by Sir Henry Rawlinson on Jul 5, 2014 5:14:52 GMT -1
Nice pics guys, what camera settings are you using? I think the last onecould do with a spot of photos shop to enhance the blue.
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Post by Sir Henry Rawlinson on Jul 5, 2014 11:45:11 GMT -1
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