|
Post by ozneil on Oct 13, 2014 0:37:36 GMT -1
Rolo Wrote elsewhere You are right! He/ she has not responded. He has no need to respond to "the many salient, cogent points offered on the indyref topic". The people have spoken decisively making these points purely academic. You mustn't treat them as fools just because they look on things differently from you. They arent, probably more worldly savvy than the 45% Obviously the 55% is a cross section of the population which will include some very astute people. It was interesting to watch which counties voted in favour I wonder what the significance of that was.... However it doesnt matter now. The people have decided now, accept it its call democracy
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 21:46:07 GMT -1
Oz said: "You mustn't treat them as fools just because they look on things differently from you. They arent, probably more worldly savvy than the 45%
Obviously the 55% is a cross section of the population which will include some very astute people."
I might take a few minutes to watch today's 'debate' from Westmonster. Allegedly it was about the delivery of devolution to Scotland, given the referendum result and the wish for change by a majority towards Devo Max, as promised by the three main party leaders (The VOW, if you will). Every single YES voter could have told you upfront that voting NO on the promise of more powers via The Vow was a total mistake. Watch the footage and tell me otherwise. Our Imperial Masters decreed during the debate that THE VOW had not been OK'd by parliament and was merely an election promise. Like YES voters didn't know that, but NO voters fell for it, hook, line, sinker. We are fucked. We are SO totally fucked. Check out the attitude of the Tories speaking in the debate and tell me I"m wrong. Labour only care about their own majority/power and no longer stand for anyone who's voted for them on principle. What was to be a debate about new powers for Scotland turned into a debate about England's interests. At no point were new powers for Scotland raised. And there was such anti-Scottish feeling in the chamber today I and so many others felt sick to our stomachs. No voters. You know not what you've done. <head in hands>
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 22:04:36 GMT -1
You are right! He/ she has not responded. He has no need to respond to "the many salient, cogent points offered on the indyref topic". The people have spoken decisively making these points purely academic. You mustn't treat them as fools just because they look on things differently from you. They arent, probably more worldly savvy than the 45% Obviously the 55% is a cross section of the population which will include some very astute people. It was interesting to watch which counties voted in favour I wonder what the significance of that was.... However it doesnt matter now. The people have decided now, accept it its call democracy *Democrat* saw fit to helicopter in, with the aid of a member here, to give an alternative view. After the vote, as we all noted Of course he/she has no need to respond. Because like all other smug NO voters, they believe they've won the victory and will brook no criticism or salient comment accordingly. Purely academic is it, Oz that nearly half of the population hold such opinions? Yeah. I don't think so. NO voters who'd pretend to dismiss nearly 50% of the population's rational arguments are delusional, as well as arrogant. I don't expect to hear from the plant that is *Democrat*. Let him and his ilk reflect long and hard on what they have done. And let them never ever EVER complain about what happens to Scotland as a result of their NO vote.
|
|
|
Post by ozneil on Oct 14, 2014 22:04:37 GMT -1
OK Ok I dont Know and dont pretend to
Remember I voted with my feet years ago. There is no way I would return to the UK to live
MAYBE repeat MAYBE they thought the less bad (worser??) of 2 bad choices (2 shades of black) I dont know, just glad I aint there. Never trusted UK Government since ...... Churchill let us down as did Wilson and Heath.
After that we had lost trust and any expectations
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 22:06:41 GMT -1
OK Ok I dont Know and dont pretend to Remember I voted with my feet years ago. There is no way I would return to the UK to live MAYBE repeat MAYBE they thought the less bad (worser??) of 2 bad choices (2 shades of black) I dont know, just glad I aint there. Never trusted UK Government since ...... Churchill let us down as did Wilson and Heath. After that we had lost trust A very disingenuous post, my friend.
|
|
|
Post by ozneil on Oct 14, 2014 22:13:35 GMT -1
OK Ok I dont Know and dont pretend to Remember I voted with my feet years ago. There is no way I would return to the UK to live MAYBE repeat MAYBE they thought the less bad (worser??) of 2 bad choices (2 shades of black) I dont know, just glad I aint there. Never trusted UK Government since ...... Churchill let us down as did Wilson and Heath. After that we had lost trust A very disingenuous post, my friend. No I dont think so... I honestly dont know what terrible conditions you suffered that drove 45% of you to such an extreme measure .. It cant have been taken lightly. From the outside I would prefer to see a United Kingdom but not living there I CANT really know.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 22:58:43 GMT -1
A very disingenuous post, my friend. No I dont think so... I honestly dont know what terrible conditions you suffered that drove 45% of you to such an extreme measure .. It cant have been taken lightly. From the outside I would prefer to see a United Kingdom but not living there I CANT really know. Please explain how 45% of the Scottish population voting to control our own affairs is 'extreme'. And how that equates with Australia's voting for its independence from the Westmonster government. And by the way, quit with the usual "I don't know' thing. You know fine well, but give it poke us with a sharp stick, asking indyref questions that are answered in good faith. Then when you don't like the answers you don't counter the arguments, just run away, giving it 'Doesn't affect me, I don't know'. Doesn't wash, Oz. Neither does *Democrat*, the big feartie.
|
|
|
Post by ozneil on Oct 15, 2014 1:09:59 GMT -1
Please explain how 45% of the Scottish population voting to control our own affairs is 'extreme'. And how that equates with Australia's voting for its independence from the Westmonster government. And by the way, quit with the usual "I don't know' thing. You know fine well, but give it poke us with a sharp stick, asking indyref questions that are answered in good faith. Then when you don't like the answers you don't counter the arguments, just run away, giving it 'Doesn't affect me, I don't know'. Doesn't wash, Oz. Neither does *Democrat*, the big feartie. Gees am I losing my ability to write English? I said " terrible conditions ..... that drove you to to such extreme measures" GEES!!!! Australia never voted for Independence from Westminster, never was dependent on Westminster. NSW was self governing from 1822 (NSW act) with other states following, NZ 1841, Victoria 1851, and Queensland in 1859. They seceded from NSW to establish their own governments. The 6 states became a Federation in 1901 nothing to do with voting for Independence from UK How can one counter your arguments when the answer is Status-quo? It doesnt affect me and I dont know coz I havent looked closely into it. I know the financial sector didnt like it nor did your main exporters, these are the guys that make money and make things viable. I didnt like Salmond getting 16-17 year olds to vote Smacked of opportunism to me. The white paper was a "hope" list relying on other countries and organisations to say yes. MOst of which had not been approached. There was no Plan B I didnt believe Central Government's promises any more than I believed Salmond's, doubt if many would. The next crux is your 2015 election to see if the momentum can be maintained. Now "democrat" prob lives in Scotland so he could if he wished answer better than me. PS I think UK government stinks too
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 17:54:19 GMT -1
Gees am I losing my ability to write English? I said " terrible conditions ..... that drove you to to such extreme measures" GEES!!!! Australia never voted for Independence from Westminster, never was dependent on Westminster. NSW was self governing from 1822 (NSW act) with other states following, NZ 1841, Victoria 1851, and Queensland in 1859. They seceded from NSW to establish their own governments. The 6 states became a Federation in 1901 nothing to do with voting for Independence from UK How can one counter your arguments when the answer is Status-quo? It doesnt affect me and I dont know coz I havent looked closely into it. I know the financial sector didnt like it nor did your main exporters, these are the guys that make money and make things viable. I didnt like Salmond getting 16-17 year olds to vote Smacked of opportunism to me. The white paper was a "hope" list relying on other countries and organisations to say yes. MOst of which had not been approached. There was no Plan B I didnt believe Central Government's promises any more than I believed Salmond's, doubt if many would. The next crux is your 2015 election to see if the momentum can be maintained. Now "democrat" prob lives in Scotland so he could if he wished answer better than me. PS I think UK government stinks too Well, we agree on that last point, for sure And they've hardly even started with the latest round of 'austerity' measures. I don't think people are even CLOSE to realising what these measures will mean for ordinary people living outwith the prosperous South East. Of COURSE the financial sector didn't like the independence threat. They like things perfectly well the way they are.....but many many Scottish businesses were pro-Indy, make no mistake. This government works on the principle that the everyday person is to be swingeingly penalised for rich guys gambling with our tax money. And outright stealing it in so many cases. Fact: tax fraud is 15 times more (at least) than benefit fraud, yet benefit fraud is raised in the media 600% more often. For the sixth year running, wages are rising at only half the level of inflation. And it's about to get worse. Re 116/17 year olds voting, there is much support for this to be rolled out nationally. Watch this space! Re the White Paper, it surprises me you've read it cover to cover? The 'No Plan B" scenario, that bordered on hysteria via the NO campaign, is patent nonsense.
|
|
|
Post by bormes on Oct 16, 2014 18:53:56 GMT -1
The Government in the UK Have a department in HMRC looking after fraud on benefit claiments, it employs over three thousand people in this department alone. It also has a serious fraud unit looking at Tax Evasion and that department employs the staggering number of less than five hundred people!! Now giving the fact that ONE company alone avoids more tax than ALL the benefit claimants working and otherwise put together. Now some people might say, Avoiding Tax is not illegal Evading Tax is!! Correct. Yet the same Government comment on those they do not like who do just that, avoid tax, they come out and say, it is IMMORAL FFS imagine a Government calling anyone immoral? Funny how the benefit fraud has more people working in it than the big money evaders?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 19:42:44 GMT -1
Not funny at all, Bormes, is it?
Of course those who cheat the system should be outed. But let's keep it in some kind of perspective. Benefit cheats get away with a wee bit here and there, not good.
But tax cheats are practically ENDORSED by Tory Governments while they pay lip-service to chasing them down. Like HELL they will.
What's the worst thing as I see it, apart from tax evasion/institutionalised robbery, is the number of employers trying to get away with paying poverty wages while maximising profit for their shareholders.
Keeping people on such hideously low wages means they're entitled to top up benefits like Income Support. Paid for via our general taxes.
But so many employers have signed up to minimum-wage, zero hours contracts because they're pitting people against each other to see who's prepared to work the cheapest.
Minimum wage is £6 an hour. Good people are going out and working for that, some trying to keep families on that. It's fucking SHAMEFUL.
The richest 10% of the UKE now own 50% of the wealth. That's unconscionable to me and many who think like me. Nasty socialists that we are, eh, Oz?
But every single NO voter has decided that this will be the status quo. <head in hands>
|
|
|
Post by ozneil on Oct 16, 2014 19:43:42 GMT -1
Course I read White Paper from cover to cover you invited me to. First things I noticed was a lot of wishful thinking and no alternatives. I could accept most coming to fruition but not all so there had to be fall backs. There werent No Rolo not nasty socialists at all idealists who unfortunately are reaching for the moon. I wish it was possible but it isnt You need entrepreneurs to create wealth and provide jobs. Dont try to drag them down rather try lift the people up. You got the governments you wanted since 1945. You have been feather-bedded and reality is starting to bite. Watch the Asian economies they are booming and stealing your & EU markets hands down. You need a massive rethink and you have to reduce debt so you can compete on a world market. To survive with a decent standard of living you must think and act globally In my own little case I took the risks in business so I wanted rewards for these risks. I provided employment for 12 people kept about 5 mortgages going as well as numerous kids. Quite a responsibility I thought I was entitled to a bit extra (I wish)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 19:51:50 GMT -1
Could you tell me which bits were wishful thinking, please?
Which parts of the White Paper didn't pass muster with you? It was a declaration of how Scotland would function, what our values and principles are:
You either agree with free tuition fees or you don't. You either agree with nuclear missiles housed on the Clyde or you don't. You either agree that Scotland could function with a defence, not an offence, force or you don't. You either agree with free social care for the elderly, free prescriptions for people who're unwell, or you don't.
Most of all, you either agree to the status quo of deeply divisive inequality or you don't.
Ask me any question you like about the White Paper and I will answer in the best of faith.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 19:53:17 GMT -1
Could you tell me which bits were wishful thinking, please?
Which parts of the White Paper didn't pass muster with you? It was a declaration of how Scotland would function, what our values and principles are:
You either agree with free tuition fees or you don't. You either agree with nuclear missiles housed on the Clyde or you don't. You either agree that Scotland could function with a defence, not an offence, force or you don't. You either agree with free social care for the elderly, free prescriptions for people who're unwell, or you don't.
Most of all, you either agree to the status quo of deeply divisive inequality, deeply unfair redistribution of resources, or you don't.
Ask me any question you like about the White Paper and I will answer you in the best of faith.
|
|
|
Post by ozneil on Oct 16, 2014 20:11:19 GMT -1
Too long ago I have forgotten as unimportant to me just a lasting impression
Your questions
You either agree with free tuition fees or you don't. Disagree Affordable loans repayments and scholarships so weeding out professional students and getting a return on country's investments (here fees 50/50 between student and Govt with scaled repayment scheme)
You either agree with nuclear missiles housed on the Clyde or you don't. Ambivalent but you need a nuclear deterrent
You either agree that Scotland could function with a defence, not an offence, force or you don't. You mean like Japan? you have armed forces or you dont
You either agree with free social care for the elderly, free prescriptions for people who're unwell, or you don't. agreed
|
|