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Post by westender on Mar 2, 2011 11:50:32 GMT -1
Plagiarism is becoming more and more rife throughout education. This is a subject that always, always makes my blood boil. Always has done. The internet is the end of civilisation as we know it... the end of true scholarship, the end of the love of learning, the end of the appreciation of education for its own sake. www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12613617I was around when this "Turnitin" software was developed and launched and I knew it couldn't possibly be relied on to do what it was supposed to do. It takes an attentive human to spot plagiarism. The kids don't accept that it's wrong: "...Helene Hegemann, a 17-year-old German author, defended herself against allegations of wholesale lifting by reference to "mixing" and insisting: "There's no such thing as originality anyway, just authenticity." OUT! Out out out!!! Get tae feck, ya bloody chancer. What chance do the academics have?: "...But academics want to hold the line. Advances in technology do not mean we should redefine our idea of what plagiarism is, says Olsson." Damn right. Goddamn it, why is EVERYTHING being devalued to the level of the stupids?? We live in a world where the numpties are calling the shots. They don't know how to study, they haven't the foggiest notion how to write an essay, they don't know what a university should be for, they don't know what scholarly endeavour is. Nor do they care!! They pay their money, they think this automatically entitles them, (no matter how conscientious or lazy they are) to that piece of paper, that they think is their ticket to making lots of money. They know that these days, for the uni, it's their money that is the bottom line, not the qulaity of the graduates. It's damn near impossible to get flung out these days. The fact of blatant plagiarism is now being factored into uni education - and a culture has grown up that accepts and excuses it!!!!! A uni education, demeaned to the level of the incompetents, the lazy and the stupids. What effing use is that to anyone? Sleepwalking to disaster.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2011 19:46:16 GMT -1
Essays or 'Compositions' in my time appear to be a dying art. English Higher exams are not based on 'essays' anymore but on looking at what the mark is for the question, knowing that you have to find 1, 3 or 4 points depending on the mark required and do something along the lines of 'Plagiarism - an act of copying another's thoughts or written work, without quoting bibliography or source. And that reply constitutes the mark required and hey presto! A Higher Grade is passed and off to Uni.
The trouble with Uni education today, is that it has been dumbed down in some quarters to make way for those poor students who simply don't know the value of our once great reputation in Scotland for education.
And the root cause in my view - countless politicians tinkering with the system, and sometimes that system wasn't broken but hey, why should that stop them?
Aaaaaaargh education - don't get me started.....
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Post by ozneil on Mar 2, 2011 20:34:24 GMT -1
Same here, dumbed down to attract overseas students. We, my institute, threatened to remove the accreditation to one Uni unless it lifted its game. The prof was quite indignant he said if he lifted standards overseas students would go elsewhere and that they needed their fees.
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Post by westender on Mar 3, 2011 0:08:47 GMT -1
Same here, dumbed down to attract overseas students. We, my institute, threatened to remove the accreditation to one Uni unless it lifted its game. The prof was quite indignant he said if he lifted standards overseas students would go elsewhere and that they needed their fees. To be fair..... one doesn't give a monkeys about the concerns of the universities in the penal colonies; youse should be grateful for anything youse get and who are youse to quibble! < ducks & runs!! >
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Post by westender on Mar 3, 2011 0:12:51 GMT -1
Aaaaaaargh education - don't get me started..... But sir, if it's no for the likes of us 'gettin started', who will there be to speak for the universities?? I note today in the Herald, a major amount of disgust and No Confidence among the hacademics, for the Uni 'management' / beancounters. That Muscatelli has got to go. He's a truly inadequate wee fuckwit, qualified only in beancounting and doublespeak.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2011 0:51:30 GMT -1
Well, Gilmorehill, (mind if I call you Gil for short, I'm lazy that way) You know you're right and I know you're right And I'll take it a step further. Example; my wean's doing Higher English and she's no' three bad at it either. In a recent NAB (part of the coursework which you have to pass, for those unaware of the current exam system) she got 23/25 for an essay she'd been working on for months. Do the maths, it's a good A pass and she needs another A for her conditionals for entry to Glasgow Uni come September. Next thing, just before last months' prelim, she came home and told me her essay had been < get this!> photocopied by the school and distributed to all the Higher English candidates.I was fucking well OUTRAGED. Her prelim result was an A as well, and she will get her deserved A come June because she's damned well worked for it. However, so might many kids who're winging it---- just because now they've got a copy of hers and only need to memorise it. I have the original should any threat of plagiarism come HER way We're in seriously big trouble, I think. Glasgow state schools are under SO much pressure league table-wise that they're perfectly prepared to use overt plagiarism to cheat other, less able, pupils through. I'm completely and utterly disgusted at some of the practices I've witnessed in Glasgow state schools in the last six years. I don't tend to beat myself up with regrets but the only one I DO admit to is not begging, stealing or borrowing the £60K to send her to private school. I stupidly believed that sending her to the local school with her friends from primary and away from the values of rich people with whom we can't compete would be the right thing to do. WRONG. What has actually happened is that kids with ability, ambition and parental support are dragged down to the level of those who can barely string a sentence together (not their fault) and the diligent hard work of the few is given away free of charge to those who can't be arsed and ride on the coat-tails of others. You really really wouldn't like me when I'm angry. Oh no.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2011 1:12:06 GMT -1
I would also be careful with the private schools - one of my friends is a teacher in a well known Glasgow private school and he claims that the 'manipulation' of figures is just unbelieveable...
He even went so far as to suggest that the fees charged would be better used elsewhere and seding a child to comprehensive or Jordanhill was much on par....
I don't know who to believe but I do know some kids from the private schools and their literacy and numeracy skills are...well just short of diabolical.
And Westender - that's why I didn't want to get started - cause I am passionate about education, passionate about Glasgow Yooni and passionate that education should be free and of the highest quality...Aaaaaaaaaaaaargh....she got me started.
(A restraining order has now been imposed on this poster - self inflicted)....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2011 1:28:08 GMT -1
I'm sorry, Gil but I think your friend is talking bollocks. There is NO WAY any comprehensive in West Glasgow begins to compare with Jordanhill. I am an FP of Jordanhill and even now, 40 years on I've many friends who've practically bankrupted themselves to buy property they couldn't afford to get their kids in. There are plenty dumb kids at private schools, you're right there. Take a look at the parents who're giving it show-off-cash status and it's fairly obvious what's going on there But the point is you are paying for their education and therefore your objections HAVE to be taken seriously. At Glasgow state schools you can pretty much get to fuck and be put down as a 'pushy parent' (and your child suffers accordingly) if you object to anything. It's a well honed art. I have been 'talked at' by so many teachers over the years, I could honestly take a fucking swing at some of them. Yet there are some who you have to respect, good teachers who treat kids with respect and get it right back. The school head has so much to do with the general morale of the school and some of them are woeful (no names, no packdrill> <packs self into restraining straitjaikit>
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Post by ozneil on Mar 3, 2011 4:52:22 GMT -1
Same here, dumbed down to attract overseas students. We, my institute, threatened to remove the accreditation to one Uni unless it lifted its game. The prof was quite indignant he said if he lifted standards overseas students would go elsewhere and that they needed their fees. To be fair..... one doesn't give a monkeys about the concerns of the universities in the penal colonies; youse should be grateful for anything youse get and who are youse to quibble! < ducks & runs!! > Yes I know its terrible Australian Nat University is only No 20 on QS World Uni scale (where grandson goes) Edinburgh Uni is 22 Sydney Uni is 37 (where other grandson went) Queensland Uni is 43 (me) Glasgow Uni is 77 Life is hard on us Colonials but we are thankfull for the ratings. Whats your excuse ??
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Post by notanimby on Mar 3, 2011 7:50:14 GMT -1
Gill-Hill is correct state education is no wdesigned to fill teh needs of teh lowest common denominator Ah huv moaned aboot r aquality of wee notas ex-seconadary skol before.
ah remember at wan parents night his engerlish teechur being aghast that nota jnr read books at hame, even merr aghast when ah telt him he hud read "catcher in the rye" at 13 fek me parents wae an interest in thur weans educashun - whitevur next wiz whit a felt.
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Post by bormes on Mar 3, 2011 20:23:19 GMT -1
I can not help but feel that the powers that be since H.Wilson and particularly, Bliar and Brown have destroyed our Scottish education system and as said brought it to the lowest common denominator. I also feel this could well be deliberate as an educated person enquires and questions things we are told by our governing elite and THEY DON'T LIKE THAT. Seems ominous that they would prefer a dumbed down society then they can't be questioned on how they are enjoying themselves with their snouts in the trough of public taxes and wealth. There is a lot of snobbery about private schools and that is not in doubt but there is a lot of decent people who think they are doing their best for their child/children by sending them to a private school as the private school is supposed to get the best out of a child that they teach, that may just be good P.R. but lots of people beleive it. Personally I wish our State schools were all of a standard that was so good, the private sector would not be needed. I also must add faith schools, have no place in our education system, I would amalgamate the lot and the only religion allowed would be as a subject teaching about all religous beleifs. We as a nation are paying per capita more tax than ever before, we have oil and gas that we make fortunes from, yet Scotland in particular is so poor compared to the south and the standard of our education for the wealth of our country is shameful. Bliar and co. should hang their heads in shame for a 13 year opportunity thrown away.
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Post by ozneil on Mar 3, 2011 21:15:49 GMT -1
I agree Bormes. It suits political parties to keep the population dumb. This is particularily true of the "Left" parties as they can then bring in a nanny state where they think they know best what the people need and they are easier to govern.
Remember it was the teachers unions that started the demise of education (No iinspectors etc) which was sanctioned by weak governments
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Post by westender on Mar 3, 2011 21:51:17 GMT -1
Example; my wean's doing Higher English and she's no' three bad at it either. In a recent NAB (part of the coursework which you have to pass, for those unaware of the current exam system) she got 23/25 for an essay she'd been working on for months. Do the maths, it's a good A pass and she needs another A for her conditionals for entry to Glasgow Uni come September. Next thing, just before last months' prelim, she came home and told me her essay had been < get this!> photocopied by the school and distributed to all the Higher English candidates.I was fucking well OUTRAGED. Her prelim result was an A as well, and she will get her deserved A come June because she's damned well worked for it. However, so might many kids who're winging it---- just because now they've got a copy of hers and only need to memorise it. I have the original should any threat of plagiarism come HER way I can't describe how angry I am at this. I really think an email to the head teacher telling him/her that you strenuously object, is in order. Is damn well necessary! This is completely unethical. We sure are. I'm disgusted at what's getting into university. Barely literate mouthbreathing baby birds, demanding spoonfeeding. I expect your wean is one of the few who will succeed no matter what school they went to. Hate to say it, but I have been saying exactly that - shoddy practices and extreme dumbing down - for years and years. UK education is fucked.
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Post by westender on Mar 3, 2011 22:07:05 GMT -1
I can not help but feel that the powers that be since H.Wilson and particularly, Bliar and Brown have destroyed our Scottish education system and as said brought it to the lowest common denominator. I also feel this could well be deliberate as an educated person enquires and questions things we are told by our governing elite and THEY DON'T LIKE THAT. Seems ominous that they would prefer a dumbed down society then they can't be questioned on how they are enjoying themselves with their snouts in the trough of public taxes and wealth. Gotta take issue with that last statement. MPs have always had their snouts in the trough, and previous generations - far better educated than this one - did not question them, and let them away with it. What is ominous is that the expenses scandal broke as a result of an uneducated Sun-reading population (the Sun is the biggest selling daily newspaper in the UK), somehow getting a peek behind the castle gates and - nasty, envious, greedy consumers that they are, thank you Thatcher - went on to bay for blood in an affronted fashion. "Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing", unfortunately. Never gonna happen! Ain't that the truth.
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Post by celyn on Mar 4, 2011 0:36:08 GMT -1
Well, Gilmorehill, (mind if I call you Gil for short, I'm lazy that way) You know you're right and I know you're right And I'll take it a step further. Example; my wean's doing Higher English and she's no' three bad at it either. In a recent NAB (part of the coursework which you have to pass, for those unaware of the current exam system) she got 23/25 for an essay she'd been working on for months. Do the maths, it's a good A pass and she needs another A for her conditionals for entry to Glasgow Uni come September. Next thing, just before last months' prelim, she came home and told me her essay had been < get this!> photocopied by the school and distributed to all the Higher English candidates.I was fucking well OUTRAGED. ... Is that even legal, without her agreement and permission? Hmmmmm. Not good.
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