Education Minister rules out tuition fees

[Deleted]

Yet another reason why Scotland is a good place to live; SNP Education Minister Mike Russell commits to a widely held Scottish principle;

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11521624

What bothers me is that we're being softened up for a graduate tax at the very least and frankly I don't agree with that either. We either invest in the best brains in the country and give them a flying start or we cripple them from the outset by debt.

So wrong.

Not sure if it's a current urban myth but it bears repeating for the sake of discussion; a one-off 5 % tax of the super rich in the UKE would wipe out the deficit in one go.

Why the flying fuck are we not all out on the streets at the sheer outrage perpetrated by the few on the many. We're all in it together? Are we fuck

[Sir Henry Rawlinson]

We're all in it together. (Great Pirates song btw)

University education is only accessible by a few ( no I don't have the numbers ) it is technically accessible by all but there are only so many places so not all school leavers could swan into University.

In my branch of the family no one has been to University. I have paid my Tax every month since I was 18 (35 years) and I wonder why I should subsidise those who by and large have had greater privilege in schooling than me, and could go on to be very high earners ( or even worse Bankers ) ??

I am absolutely ok with supporting state Education and University for subjects that have a social impact ( Medicine/pharmacology etc) but Politics degrees? Law Degrees? These are access gates to high earning trades.

I'm Grouchy today. But only a bit.

[ozneil]

I reckon Uni fees are fair.

I went to Uni for one reason, to get a degree to enable me to earn lotsa brass ( Gees I wonder where that idea went wrong --- obviously chose wrong degree) and allow me to travel. It is quite right that I should have had to pay fot that privilege.

In my day and in my country I went through Uni on scholarships & loans.

As I was good enough I got Government Scholarships of varying amounts. So did most other people who were serious studiers They didnt have to be "Brain boxes" just pass exams. Scholarships varied with student & subject.

Here you now get government loan which you pay back at a very low rate of interest over a period dependant on income ... Its a good investment in yourself.

Before people start bleating about millstones round necks graduates, in most fields usually earn enough to pay bacl loan & still make a decent living, unless of course its an arts degree in which case serves them right... not much money in serving Big_macs

[Deleted]

Oct 13, 2010 6:20:16 GMT -1 Sir Henry Rawlinson said:

In my branch of the family no one has been to University. I have paid my Tax every month since I was 18 (35 years) and I wonder why I should subsidise those who by and large have had greater privilege in schooling than me, and could go on to be very high earners ( or even worse Bankers ) ??

So, would you cherrypick which graduates your tax money goes towards, Grouchy? Should uni fees be means-tested?

Of course it's true that kids in private education tend to get more uni places per capita than kids in state education. That's because their parents buy their Highers and A levels at 10K a year x 6 years.

I don't personally believe uni entrance should be about the ability to pay. That only perpetrates the current trend and does nothing to open up entry to hard-working, ambitious but poorer kids.

Fair to point out that high-earning graduates already pay a bigger chunk of their salary in tax? Current threshold for 40% tax is £43K. I know a LOT of qualified tradespeople who earn a helluva lot more than that and you've invested in them through college courses via your tax as well

[ozneil]

Oct 14, 2010 20:13:03 GMT -1 @rolo said:

Oct 13, 2010 6:20:16 GMT -1 Sir Henry Rawlinson said:

In my branch of the family no one has been to University. I have paid my Tax every month since I was 18 (35 years) and I wonder why I should subsidise those who by and large have had greater privilege in schooling than me, and could go on to be very high earners ( or even worse Bankers ) ??

So, would you cherrypick which graduates your tax money goes towards, Grouchy? Should uni fees be means-tested?

Of course it's true that kids in private education tend to get more uni places per capita than kids in state education. That's because their parents buy their Highers and A levels at 10K a year x 6 years.

I don't personally believe uni entrance should be about the ability to pay. That only perpetrates the current trend and does nothing to open up entry to hard-working, ambitious but poorer kids.

Fair to point out that high-earning graduates already pay a bigger chunk of their salary in tax? Current threshold for 40% tax is £43K. I know a LOT of qualified tradespeople who earn a helluva lot more than that and you've invested in them through college courses via your tax as well

Of course it should. All welfare should be means tested. Its ludicruous not to be.

Gees I dont get an Old Age Pension (or whtaever its called now) coz
I dont qualify as "needy" and thats the way it should be . With welfare being means tested It means less $$$ are wasted and that keeps tax down.

The main beneficiaries of a Uni education are the guys who get degrees why shouldnt they pay back the money the Govt spends on them? I know I didnt begrudge it and believe you me I looked for handouts from church mice.

One of the reasons is that people from a "Higher Scocio- economic" background usually have a higher education than those less well off & they hound actively encourage their kids to study so of course their kids get higher marks

[Deleted]

Oct 14, 2010 20:31:56 GMT -1 ozneil said:

The main beneficiaries of a Uni education are the guys who get degrees why shouldnt they pay back the money the Govt spends on them?

Those graduates who remain here already do by dint of those higher earnings, Oz. They pay 40% tax as well as spending their disposable income-- which in turn contributes to our economy in Scotland. Many more become entrepreneurs and employ people here.

One thing that bugs me is when we train great brains here in Scotland who then emigrate out of here toot sweet, paying no contribution back for their education through taxes. All the benefits go to another economy. That I don't think is fair or reasonable and needs to be looked at.

No insult meant towards your dear self, Oz--but the drain of brains has been an issue here for generations now

[ozneil]

Oct 14, 2010 21:11:22 GMT -1 @rolo said:

Those graduates who remain here already do by dint of those higher earnings, Oz. They pay 40% tax as well as spending their disposable income-- which in turn contributes to our economy in Scotland. Many more become entrepreneurs and employ people here.

One thing that bugs me is when we train great brains here in Scotland who then emigrate out of here toot sweet, paying no contribution back for their education through taxes. All the benefits go to another economy. That I don't think is fair or reasonable and needs to be looked at.

No insult meant towards your dear self, Oz--but the drain of brains has been an issue here for generations now

Well you couldn't entice me to stay even although I was bribed to stay by a beautiful lady. The opportunities just werent there.

I took her back with me

[bormes]

A good question this one.
There is no real "baddy" here, I have always in the past felt education should be free, but in reality we did all pay for it.
Having heard all the arguments (well most of them) and having a daughter who has paid back loans when doing her Honours degree in languages etc., I have changed my mind a bit, I do not mind a means test system, my daughter who has gone thro' the system also agrees a means test would be fairer.
Many reasons are put forward but, I can say the country does need help and if a very small amount of people had to pay a one off tax it may be acceptable.
Personally, I think the wealthy ones who move to Eire etc., to AVOID tax are the ones worth targeting.

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2010 9:35:45 GMT -1 bormes said:

A good question this one.
There is no real "baddy" here, I have always in the past felt education should be free, but in reality we did all pay for it.
Having heard all the arguments (well most of them) and having a daughter who has paid back loans when doing her Honours degree in languages etc., I have changed my mind a bit, I do not mind a means test system, my daughter who has gone thro' the system also agrees a means test would be fairer.
Many reasons are put forward but, I can say the country does need help and if a very small amount of people had to pay a one off tax it may be acceptable.
Personally, I think the wealthy ones who move to Eire etc., to AVOID tax are the ones worth targeting.

I can see problems with means-testing as well though. First off, people will and DO lie when it comes to claiming benefits shock horror

Currently kids of 16 and over who remain at school full time can claim the EMA allowance, £40 quid a week or so, depending on their family's income. What is happening---- and I know it for a fact---is that parents are lying about their income and circumstances to get their kids this allowance. I know kids whose allowance/pocket money has been stopped because effectively the state is paying fraudulent claimants the £40 a week.

Secondly, means-testing adds another whole layer of expensive civil service bureaucracy and you have to ask whether the pros of setting up and maintenance of that balances the cons of having a universal free tuition policy.

I would be in favour of two measures; a higher than 40% tax for grads who earn into six figures plus a continuing contribution from those grads who emigrate without paying a penny in tax here in the country that's educated them.

[ozneil]

If they emigrate how do you propose to get them to pay back the $$$ ?

[heidie]

Haud ther rellies tae ramsom....seemples!