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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 1:05:21 GMT -1
So at the end of term one, it's reported that some have had to quit their studies at GU because they've not been able to find pt jobs with reasonably flexible hours and have racked up a couple of thousand in student loans already in subsistence, rent etc. Some have jobs that require 20+ hours a week minimum, with inflexible rotas. And many parents are unable or unwilling to allow teenage kids to stay at home for free. We need to bring back student grants whether it be in the form of subsidised books and materials or just a few quid a year towards living expenses. For recognised accredited degree courses at proper universities. So I have to say this; it's time that we got our priorities right and took a serious look at the upper age limits for the highly subsidised DACE (Glasgow Uni Adult Education). I don't believe we can afford to continue subsidising people in their 60s and older, most of whom, frankly, are only there to while away a few hours a week while their younger classmates often use DACE towards accessing full degrees and useful working careers. If the elderly are that much into getting an 'education' at that stage of life, let them take out loans to pay for Open University, just like proper students have to. We should be freeing up the resources of Glasgow Uni and concentrating them on younger people when they most need the financial support. The DACE courses are so basic they could be run in local libraries or community centres with a fee that remotely resembles the cost of the teacher's time. It sticks in my craw that we're paying for relatively well off people to piss around 'learning' about Mayan architecture or comedy script writing while very smart kids are having to quit FT courses.
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Post by bormes on Dec 28, 2011 7:46:39 GMT -1
I had no idea it was as bad as that. I cannot fault your reasoning. Do you know if those who have dropped out, may have done so anyway and are perhaps using this as an excuse? Or are these an extra number of young ones leaving?
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Post by westender on Dec 28, 2011 16:12:04 GMT -1
So I have to say this; it's time that we got our priorities right and took a serious look at the upper age limits for the highly subsidised DACE (Glasgow Uni Adult Education). I don't believe we can afford to continue subsidising people in their 60s and older, most of whom, frankly, are only there to while away a few hours a week while their younger classmates often use DACE towards accessing full degrees and useful working careers. If the elderly are that much into getting an 'education' at that stage of life, let them take out loans to pay for Open University I totally disagree. This is the same kind of thinking as that of the incompetent nitwits currently 'running' the university, for whom the bottom line - the ONLY thing they care about - is capitalism; profit. They are treating the university as a business. They don't give a shit about the education of people and they don't know or care what a university is for. This is wrong, wrong, wrong. Older folk NO MATTER THEIR AGE are as much a part of the community as anyone else, and in a civilised society should have have as much right to easily access decent education as anyone else. Barring them from DACE will cut off the University from a significant part of the community in which it is located - and from a section of the population who still hold a university education as thing of some prestige - and thereby turn away from a civic mission which has characterised the institution for centuries. For this city particularly, to close the opportunity to access university-standard classes to those who want to educate themselves at their city's ancient university now that they have the time, is a step in the wrongest of directions. Many of them have spent their lives working their fingers to the bone in order, along with the university, to uphold the name and fame of this great city and who were denied the opportunity in their youth to go to university through no fault of their own. There are today far too many inadequate first years at uni who simply shouldn't be there and who are devaluing the whole idea of university education. They're not anywhere near up to scratch. I have attended (among others) classes in religious history, Egyptology and Classics at DACE, where I was by far the youngest in the class. My older fellow students were enthusiastic, articulate, highly literate and rigorous in their studies. They were excellent, committed, hardworking, delightful students - and IME their performances were far more of a credit to the institution than many first years, in whose (largely dismal) company I have also had to spend time in recent years. If you want to talk priorities, DACE is NOT what should be getting looked at if the uni wishes to save money. Targetting DACE students is fundamentally wrong. There are many other areas of utter waste in the uni that could and should be trimmed or abolished.... look at the OP.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2011 23:09:28 GMT -1
I'm not arguing that DACE should be discontinued. I'm saying that there should be an upper age limit for these highly subsidised courses.
Of course that idea is anathema as it wouldn't pass the age discrimination laws.
We are where we are, economically and we all understand why. However, if we have to prioritise--and we do---is it not better to invest in young people who are going to bear a huge burden in future paying for all our mistakes?
'Educating' 65+ folks at a redbrick uni is a luxury that requires more money than we can raise from the tax-base, given the state of youth unemployment. It could just as easily be done in community centres and libraries at a fraction of the cost.
I'm sure you're right that there's 'waste' elsewhere but every department's fair game and DACE can't expect to be excluded from that. We all know there's perpetual mature students, very often middle-class ladies of a certain age, who put their 'education' to frankly no practical use at all.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2011 23:36:38 GMT -1
I had no idea it was as bad as that. I cannot fault your reasoning. Do you know if those who have dropped out, may have done so anyway and are perhaps using this as an excuse? Or are these an extra number of young ones leaving? Historically, Bormes, there's aye been a few that decide early in first year that Uni life is not for them. But what's becoming apparent now is that it's less easy to walk into p/t jobs that are flexible. It's affecting mainly students in halls and rented flats, rather than those who live at home. One young friend is repeating first year because of taking an inflexible catering job, working too many hours, too many nights, leaving no time to study. Average cost of rent plus bills plus food, never mind books, in a flat for 4-6 is nothing short of £500 a month each. Even without tuition fees, that's a debt of what, £20-25K on leaving uni? That's why I'd like to see a reintroduction of grants. My own parents would definitely have not been able to bankroll my keep for four years at Glasgow had I not had one and that goes for the vast majority of my friends at the time. We need doctors, scientists, lawyers, psychologists, engineers, historians, geographers, writers, linguists, artists. It sticks in my craw that great young people are so hogtied by financial concerns while ladies that lunch take up resources and give back precisely nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 18:45:26 GMT -1
I will go further and no doubt get battered and bruised in the process.
I believe that one of the greatest things about Scotland (well it once was) is our respect and regard for education. I still believe that education should be free and available to all, regardless of race, creed, colour or background but you must be born in Scotland and live in Scotland to be eligible to receive this right!
If I was First Minister for a day, I would restore the Grants and cancel all Student Loans, etc.
I write this as someone who returned late to education due to underperforming at school, not because I was unwilling or unable but because of dyslexia and other issues which were only discovered 3 years ago in my mid 40's. Mind you, I got my degree, and other certificates and it all began in DACE...
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Post by bormes on Dec 30, 2011 19:08:42 GMT -1
Well done, clever Lassie.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 21:19:48 GMT -1
I will go further and no doubt get battered and bruised in the process. I believe that one of the greatest things about Scotland (well it once was) is our respect and regard for education. I still believe that education should be free and available to all, regardless of race, creed, colour or background but you must be born in Scotland and live in Scotland to be eligible to receive this right! If I was First Minister for a day, I would restore the Grants and cancel all Student Loans, etc. I write this as someone who returned late to education due to underperforming at school, not because I was unwilling or unable but because of dyslexia and other issues which were only discovered 3 years ago in my mid 40's. Mind you, I got my degree, and other certificates and it all began in DACE... What better argument to concentrate DACE resources on people who will actually put them to use, Gilly, and go on to achieve their potential in their working lives. Another acquaintance of mine went to DACE in their early 30s recently and used it as a springboard to access a degree course too. I just think there's an important difference between those who use DACE as a means to an end, rather than chattering-class empty-nesters using it because they're bored. They 'shouldn't be there' in my opinion. Westie opines that many younger students 'shouldn't be there' also--- but I disagree. If they've gained the qualis for entrance (and Glasgow raised theirs this year) then they are the brightest and the best-- and financial worries shouldn't come into it. By the way, two of my team are paying off student loans at the age of 29 and 30. They won't be clear for at least 10 or so years yet. It's a burden too far IMHO. One of the reasons I nailed my colours to the mast and joined the SNP this year was because of their/our belief in not charging tuition fees. I too would take it as far as restoring a level of grant aid towards books and subsistence, Gilly. That may take some time, however...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2012 19:00:47 GMT -1
By the way, two of my team are paying off student loans at the age of 29 and 30. They won't be clear for at least 10 or so years yet. It's a burden too far IMHO. One of the reasons I nailed my colours to the mast and joined the SNP this year was because of their/our belief in not charging tuition fees. I too would take it as far as restoring a level of grant aid towards books and subsistence, Gilly. That may take some time, however... Re the price of books; Ms R just spent a couple of weeks trawling second hand bookshops and the net for her second-term text books. No luck. So to John Smith's on campus where I believe the prices are artificially high. £48 for one fairly slimline textbook. Total to date in two terms is just shy of £200. She's lucky her auld ma's been putting money away to help her with costs. But so many kids are having to choose between having the books and eating/paying rent. In 1974-8 my student grant was around £1300 a year. It was means- tested on the income of the parents. Some got more, many got less. But it's coming to the point now where ordinary people with the qualis are put off uni because of the cost (and even in Scotland where we don't pay tuition fees). It just seems wrong to me that Higher education is more and more tilted in favour of people with means. Trust me, it's only going to get worse under a Tory Westminster government. They'll do ANYTHING to keep the class system going. <by the by, the wean's got straight Bs in her exams so's looking good for second year, there's not a day goes by I'm not grateful she got the opportunity... ;D>
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Post by ozneil on Jan 23, 2012 19:39:57 GMT -1
Good for her. Its the hidden costs that get you at uni. books being one, food being another. Doesnt student loans cover all that? The HECS here covers most things & repayments dont kick in till you earn $35,000.
Middle grandson has been hunting desperately for accommodation in Canberra as he is fed up with student residences at ANU. Got a share house... 3 of them all post grad students. Bit annoying as he will be spending a few months studying in Munster in Germany and still have to pay rent. Hoping to go to a few conferences in Europe while there.... All courtesy of the Oz tax payer
The cadets in my office did a sandwich course. We bought the books and they were kept in the office for the next cadet along with all assignments. It made life easier for their studies. It was part of the deal. Luckily the lecturers seldom changed the assignments from one year to the next.
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Post by bormes on Jan 23, 2012 19:58:44 GMT -1
Rolo, Is the net not any use for downloading some info from the books? Or would it take too long?
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Post by notanimby on Jan 23, 2012 20:15:05 GMT -1
I have all my books on politics, economics and a few other subjects of ma soshul science course circa1979 not much use I suspect
Or even wee notas pharmacy books again outdated so quickly
I' m sure these new editions being churned out are just a way of nullifying the second hand market
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2012 20:15:41 GMT -1
Yeah, most are copyrighted although people do try to sneak copies online.
The uni library holds all the relevant texts but the poorer-off are in a long wait list to borrow em.
Don't get me wrong, I don't grudge a penny of any support I give my wean. But I do get a bit pissed off when I see well-off students from afar using daddy's credit card in Waitrose etc when so many good Scottish kids are struggling to make ends meet.
I'd welcome means-tested grants. I don't see why good bona fide students should suffer because their parents are unwilling or unable to help them out. Then again with means-testing there's always gonna be those who'll cheat.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2012 20:19:05 GMT -1
I have all my books on politics, economics and a few other subjects of ma soshul science course circa1979 not much use I suspect Or even wee notas pharmacy books again outdated so quickly I' m sure these new editions being churned out are just a way of nullifying the second hand market Same here, Nota! Me and my sis've been through our ancient texts as well but even the classic ones have been updated to the point to render the auld yins (almost) useless. Although I did find a text on Plato that's not on her reading list but is still relevant for background. Phew! Another £20 saved, lol! ;D Same as computer games, ain't it? Built in obsolescence.
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Post by ozneil on Jan 23, 2012 20:29:35 GMT -1
Talking about using "Daddy's" credit card. One of our cadets had parents in PNG & they subsidised his meagre salary by way of a credit card. It was always maxed out One day in our favourite eatery "Greasy Joes" guy tried to pay as usual by card . Greasy took it & went to back shop. two minutes later he raced back yelling "IT WENT THROUGH...... IT WENT THROUGH!!!!"
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