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Post by ozneil on Nov 6, 2010 22:55:46 GMT -1
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Post by westender on Nov 6, 2010 23:43:38 GMT -1
OK, well the survey monkey thing is meaningless.... and the link to SA leads only to a front page as far as I can see. What article are you referring to? ya plum |
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Post by ozneil on Nov 7, 2010 0:07:11 GMT -1
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Post by westender on Nov 7, 2010 13:39:01 GMT -1
Fine. You're unpersuadable. That's your problem. "In fighting for science, we subscribe to a comforting illusion: that people can be swayed by the facts." www.monbiot.com/archives/2010/03/08/the-unpersuadables/"...In 2008 the Washington Post summarised recent psychological research on misinformation. This shows that in some cases debunking a false story can increase the number of people who believe it. In one study, 34% of conservatives who were told about the Bush government’s claims that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction were inclined to believe them. But among those who were shown that the government’s claims were later comprehensively refuted by the Duelfer report, 64% ended up believing that Iraq had WMD. " There is no way that human activity on this planet is not affecting the climate. It is a no brainer. |
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Post by ozneil on Nov 7, 2010 19:51:07 GMT -1
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Post by westender on Nov 8, 2010 13:51:37 GMT -1
George Monbiot is hardly an unbiased scientist anywhy why let a few ufortunate facts stop a good rant by him. Bias? How did George come by his opinions? Facts? I refer you to the detailed footnotes and sources he provides at the end of each and every article. His pieces are meticulously researched. Always. You've never read any Monbiot. I'll bet you anything you like on that. You're unpersuadable. i.e. you do not wish to be persuaded and are actively ignoring all evidence to the contrary of your position. There's TONS more confirming the facts of climate change due (partly or more than partly) to human activity. You don't seem to appreciate the difference between weather and climate (a common failing among the deniers). I'm not interested in your cherrypickings. I daresay you've got loads of this sort of thing bookmarked, all supporting your position - and none that refute it. I've done the reading of both sides, which is why I have come to the conclusions I have come to. George certainly has. His reading is wideranging, not blinkered by specialisms in one tiny part of the spectrum of science. Not only that, I can see far enough beyond the trees - which apparently you can't - to the the screamingly obvious picture: that there is no way human activity is not having an effect on the climate of this planet. Many other factors may well be as well, but we are now ineradicably in that mix and are having an effect. You've lived on a big 99% empty landmass too long, mate. There's a big world out there, stuffed full to bursting of people consuming and polluting and rubbishing and destroying and making babies just as fast as they can, all encouraged by gigantic corporations who don't give a damn about the state of the planet. If you refuse to accept that that much human activity cannot possibly have an effect on the balance of the natural world, climate included, you're madder than a lab rat. |
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Post by ozneil on Nov 8, 2010 20:00:44 GMT -1
You really like the Kings new suit do you?   The Oceans which take up about 75% of the earth's surface are huge heat sinks and as they heat and cool the worlds climate/weather ( to differentiate is really using weasel words ) As an example, Labrador is on the same latitude as UK but with a severe weather pattern however in the UK the gulf stream keeps the climate temperate as it does to all of Notrhen Europe If the Gulf stream cools the weather will get colder in Europe. (note use of the word climate as it suits Alarmists' theories jargon & use of weather when it doesnt suit them ;D ) The Russians are very concerned about this. At the moment The Ocean Conveyor (The big Ocean Current system) is cooling . The Gulf Stream as noted by the Americans & Russians. El Nino as noted by our guys and the Chileans Man may be having some effect but it is infitesimal compared to the forces of nature BTW Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution is probable the most respected Ocean Research organistaion in the World, I would suggest you read their articles, all views are aired by experts. One huge volcanic eruption and bingo a new Ice age Note that the "Pacific Ring of Fire" aint doing bad in that regard |
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Post by yonzabam on Nov 9, 2010 18:31:40 GMT -1
You're right about the immensity of the global oceanic heat sink. Warm water at the surface is slowly drawn down to the cold bottom of the ocean and cold water from the bottom slowly upwells to the surface in parts of the globe. Small changes to this 'gyre' could have quite dramatic consequences for global climate. It's conceivable that climatic changes could cause it to speed up, causing cooling, or slow down, causing warming. It's a big unknown in the climate change debate, but it's a potentially large feedback mechanism which could go either way.
It has long been acknowledged that global warming caused by man made greenhouse gases has a quite different 'signature' to that caused by increased solar activity. Greenhouse gases reradiate outgoing infrared radiation travelling upwards from the surface of the planet back down to the surface, causing warming in the lower atmosphere (troposphere). This means that there is less energy to warm the upper atmosphere (stratosphere) so, as the troposphere warms, the stratosphere cools.
This stratospheric cooling has been measured for decades now, and is of the order of a few degrees centigrade, increasing with altitude. The cooling of the jet stream at the border of the troposphere and stratosphere is therefore further evidence that increasing global temperature on the ground is due to greenhouse gases and not due to increased solar output as that would result in warming of the whole atmosphere.
2010 is well on course to be the warmest year on record globally, and by quite some margin. This is a tad concerning as there is currently a strong La Nina event in the Pacific, which has always been associated with a temporary reduction in global temperature. The El Nino Southern Oscillation (ENSO) in the Pacific is a normal cycle and the fact that it has recently changed from a warm El Nino to a cool La Nina is of no consequence in the global warming debate.
This year, 17 countries have recorded a new national record high temperature, while no country has recorded a record low temperature. Here's a cut & paste:
National heat records set in 2010
Belarus recorded its hottest temperature in its history on August 6, 2010, when the mercury hit 38.9°C (102.0°F) in Gorky. The previous record was 38.0°C (100.4°F) set at Vasiliyevichy on Aug. 20, 1946.
Ukraine recorded its hottest temperature in its history when the mercury hit 42.0°C (107.6°F) at Lukhansk on August 12, 2010. The previous record was set at the same location on August 1, 2010--41.3°C (106.3°F). Ukraine also reached 41.3°C on July 20 and 21, 2007, at Voznesensk.
Cyprus recorded its hottest temperature in its history on August 1, 2010 when the mercury hit 46.6°C (115.9°F) at Lefconica. The old record for Cyprus was 44.4°C (111.9°F) at Lefkosia in August 1956. An older record of 46.6°C from July 1888 was reported from Nicosia, but is of questionable reliability.
Finland recorded its hottest temperature on July 29, 2010, when the mercury hit 37.2°C (99°F) at Joensuu. The old (undisputed) record was 95°F (35°C) at Jyvaskyla on July 9, 1914.
Qatar had its hottest temperature in history on July 14, 2010, when the mercury hit 50.4°C (122.7°F) at Doha Airport.
Russia had its hottest temperature in history on July 11, when the mercury rose to 44.0°C (111.2°F) in Yashkul, Kalmykia Republic, in the European portion of Russia near the Kazakhstan border. The previous hottest temperature in Russia (not including the former Soviet republics) was the 43.8°C (110.8°F) reading measured at Alexander Gaj, Kalmykia Republic, on August 6, 1940. The remarkable heat in Russia this year has not been limited just to the European portion of the country--the Asian portion of Russia also recorded its hottest temperature in history this year, a 42.7°C (108.9°F) reading at Ust Kara, in the Chita Republic on June 27. The 42.3°C (108.1°F) reading on June 25 at Belogorsk, near the Amur River border with China, also beat the old record for the Asian portion of Russia. The previous record for the Asian portion of Russia was 41.7°C (107.1°F) at Aksha on July 21, 2004.
Sudan recorded its hottest temperature in its history on June 22 when the mercury rose to 49.7°C (121.5°F) at Dongola. The previous record was 49.5°C (121.1°F) set in July 1987 in Aba Hamed.
Niger tied its record for hottest day in history on June 22, 2010, when the temperature reached 47.1°C (116.8°F) at Bilma. That record stood for just one day, as Bilma broke the record again on June 23, when the mercury topped out at 48.2°C (118.8°F). The previous record was 47.1°C on May 24, 1998, also at Bilma.
Saudi Arabia had its hottest temperature ever on June 22, 2010, with a reading of 52.0°C (125.6°F) in Jeddah, the second largest city in Saudi Arabia. The previous record was 51.7°C (125.1°F), at Abqaiq, date unknown. The record heat was accompanied by a sandstorm, which caused eight power plants to go offline, resulting in blackouts to several Saudi cities.
Chad had its hottest day in history on June 22, 2010, when the temperature reached 47.6°C (117.7°F) at Faya. The previous record was 47.4°C (117.3°F) at Faya on June 3 and June 9, 1961.
Kuwait recorded its hottest temperature in history on June 15 in Abdaly, according to the Kuwait Met office. The mercury hit 52.6°C (126.7°F). Kuwait's previous all-time hottest temperature was 51.9°C (125.4°F), on July 27,2007, at Abdaly. Temperatures reached 51°C (123.8°F) in the capital of Kuwait City on June 15, 2010.
Iraq had its hottest day in history on June 14, 2010, when the mercury hit 52.0°C (125.6°F) in Basra. Iraq's previous record was 51.7°C (125.1°F) set August 8, 1937, in Ash Shu'aybah.
Pakistan had its hottest temperature in history on May 26, when the mercury hit an astonishing 53.5°C (128.3°F) at the town of MohenjuDaro, according to the Pakistani Meteorological Department. While this temperature reading must be reviewed by the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) for authenticity, not only is the 128.3°F reading the hottest temperature ever recorded in Pakistan, it is the hottest reliably measured temperature ever recorded on the continent of Asia. The old Pakistani record was 52.8°C (127°F) at Jacobabad in 1919.
Myanmar (Burma) had its hottest temperature in its recorded history on May 14, when the mercury hit 47.2°C (117.0°F) in Myinmu. This broke the record of 47.0°C set at the same location two days previous (May 12.) Myanmar's previous hottest temperature was 46.0°C (114.4°F) at Magwe in May, 1980. According to Chris Burt, author of the authoritative weather records book Extreme Weather, the 47.2°C measured this year is the hottest temperature in Southeast Asia history.>
Ascention Island (St. Helena, a U.K. Territory) had its hottest temperature in history on March 25, 2010, when the mercury hit 34.9°C (94.8°F) at Georgetown. The previous record was 34.0°C (93.2°F) at Georgetown in April 2003, exact day unknown.
The Solomon Islands had their hottest temperature in history on February 1, 2010, when the mercury hit 36.1°C (9°F) at Honiara Henderson. The previous record for the Solomon Islands was 35.6°C (96.0°F) at Honaiara, date unknown.
Colombia had its hottest reliably measured temperature in history on January 24, 2010, when Puerto Salgar hit 42.3°C (108°F). The previous record was 42.0°C (107.6°F) at El Salto in March 1988 (exact day unknown)Some unreliable extreme highs include 43.0°C at Puerto Salgar in May 2002, and 42.7°C at Barrancabermeja in December 1949.
All-time national heat records were missed by 1°C or less in many other nations this summer, including China, the Azores, Morocco, Estonia, and Latvia.
Extensive credit for researching these records goes to weather records researcher Maximiliano Herrera, who maintains a comprehensive set of extreme temperature records on his web site.
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Post by ozneil on Nov 9, 2010 19:16:26 GMT -1
What you say is fascinating stuff Yonza. The whole subject is. As you say the stratospheric temps have been measured for decades and record temperatures have been recorded. World wide temps have been recorded now for 150 years . Both of which in the words of my Taoist Bishop mate "are a blink in the eye of eternity". (I love that phrase) According Oceanographers as the world climate warms the ice caps release huge volumes of fresh water which restrict the actions of the Ocean conveyor to move warm water to the extremes of the planet which in turn causes temperatures to cool and has caused in past mini ice ages. At the moment as I have noted above the Russian Acadamey, NASA, Woodshole and our own CSIRO have stated there is a cooling in these currents which in turn will reduce global temperatures in the next few years We know from history & research there have been warm & cool periods throughout the world for eons. The last major ice age 15,000? years ago, We also know that the know world was warmer than it is now 600 years ago but with mini-ice ages 200 years ago. Last centuary even was a warm period from about 1910-to 1920s then a cold period late 30s to late 40s. There appears to be several cycles the major cycle that lasts 10,000?? to 20,000??? years where the orbit of the earth round the sun increases. This affects global temperature. The earth also "wobbles" on its axis from time to time (I've forgotten the timing I think its 10-15 years ) and this exposes either more or less of the Northern or Southern Hemisphere to sunlight so increasing or decreasing temperatures depending on position in cycle . To say man causes Global Warming is far to simplistic. Damn gorra go  |
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Post by notanimby on Nov 9, 2010 19:32:05 GMT -1
any chance of some of tehy hot temps doon here in middlesboro' - its fekkin baltic and ra thermostsat only goes uptae 23C
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Post by ozneil on Nov 9, 2010 19:50:55 GMT -1
back. Damnitall !!!!  I lost my train of thought (wimmmmin) I think i got the gist down. Except to say its been the second coldest wettest spring here since the last one  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2010 20:45:06 GMT -1
You don't seem to appreciate the difference between weather and climate (a common failing among the deniers). Anyone mind if I ask for clarification on that very basic question? I'm extremely underinformed on the whole topic. What IS the difference, please, anyone? Preferably in plain English if poss... |
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Post by notanimby on Nov 10, 2010 20:47:46 GMT -1
You don't seem to appreciate the difference between weather and climate (a common failing among the deniers). Anyone mind if I ask for clarification on that very basic question? I'm extremely underinformed on the whole topic. What IS the difference, please, anyone? Preferably in plain English if poss... Climate change is where ra weather is gettin warmer - its no' furra like of us here in ra cauld norf - jist seems tae be affectin people who ur already warm enuff |
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Post by ozneil on Nov 10, 2010 23:06:51 GMT -1
You don't seem to appreciate the difference between weather and climate (a common failing among the deniers). Anyone mind if I ask for clarification on that very basic question? I'm extremely underinformed on the whole topic. What IS the difference, please, anyone? Preferably in plain English if poss... Simple really Climate Change is when the weather pattern suits the alarmists theories Weather is when weather patterns disprove the Alarmists theories |
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I lost my train of thought (wimmmmin) I think i got the gist down. Except to say its been the second coldest wettest spring here since the last one 