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Post by ozneil on Oct 16, 2014 20:19:39 GMT -1
I added this bit later on apost so in case you missed it
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 20:44:38 GMT -1
Too long ago I have forgotten as unimportant to me just a lasting impression Your questions You either agree with free tuition fees or you don't. Disagree Affordable loans repayments and scholarships so weeding out professional students and getting a return on country's investments (here fees 50/50 between student and Govt with scaled repayment scheme) You either agree with nuclear missiles housed on the Clyde or you don't. Ambivalent but you need a nuclear deterrent You either agree that Scotland could function with a defence, not an offence, force or you don't. You mean like Japan? you have armed forces or you dont You either agree with free social care for the elderly, free prescriptions for people who're unwell, or you don't. agreed Ok, here goes: 1) Tuition fees; Scotland was built on the principle that education is a universal right and not a privilege. By endorsing tuition fees, you are effectively saying that only the wealthy have access to further/higher education. To me and so many others here, education is a means in itself, not just a means to an end. Student loans for anything other than accommodation and upkeep are abhorrent to me. We're investing in a generation of ambitious, capable people, so taking out tuition fees is the very least we can do. It used to be that this group got grants, not loans. 2) You can't say in one breath that you're ambivalent, yet then decree from afar that 'we' 'need' a nuclear deterrent. If UK's SO in favour of that dubious deterrent, let them house it in England. Except that they never will, because every single mainstream party would lose votes if that were their policy. NOBODY but NOBODY wants it in their backyard. 3) Armed forces; the proposal in the White Paper was to maintain a defence force, all details of which were enumerated, perhaps you missed that part? People in favour of YES were keen for our armed forces not to be involved in offensive wars undertaken by Westminster/US government. We'd prefer to defend rather than offend while giving humanitarian aid to war-torn countries elsewhere. Not a difficult concept, really. 4) So, you agree with free social care/prescriptions and the general need to take care of the most vulnerable? Great. How shall this be paid for unless we are given the levers to ensure big congomerates pay the taxes due, rather than fuck right off via helicoptering in, paying insulting wages then run away laughing out loud with their vast profits? Tell me that.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 21:04:05 GMT -1
I added this bit later on apost so in case you missed it And yet again, we hear the old-fashioned view that anyone who believes in equality of opportunity, encouraging our entrepreneurs while having a social conscience is in fact, reaching for the moon. What a very sorry world-view that is. Perhaps you consider it as sanguine, all-knowing, world-weary. At no point EVER would I drag down entrepreneurs. What I WOULD DO, and will continue to do, is highlight the principle that too many of them now adhere to: exploiting their workforce for their own personal gain. Taking advantage of recessional conditions to pay piss poor wages while maximising personal gain. You are correct that Asian economies are booming. What you don't say is that they are competing for outsourced business from the UKE. Asian workers are on the same basic pittance---like for like---than those here in the UKE. How to maximise profits = set people against each other to see who'll work most cheaply. By endorsing such global capitalist principles, small business owners like yourself (no matter how good/honest/generous) sets themselves up for failure. |
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Post by ozneil on Oct 16, 2014 21:04:50 GMT -1
Put it bluntly
How you run your country is your affair
If anything is given free its not valued.
So we agree to differ on best way to run a country
I read bit about your armed forces the way they were described in White Paper they couldnt defend country against a pack of determined brownies. You would have to rely on others to defend you, not a good situation.
We look after our needy and we dont blame any shortfall on others, blame your own governments which you voted in. No one else is to blame (A big bhoy dun it and he ran away)
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Post by ozneil on Oct 16, 2014 21:11:43 GMT -1
And yet again, we hear the old-fashioned view that anyone who believes in equality of opportunity, encouraging our entrepreneurs while having a social conscience is in fact, reaching for the moon. What a very sorry world-view that is. Perhaps you consider it as sanguine, all-knowing, world-weary. At no point EVER would I drag down entrepreneurs. What I WOULD DO, and will continue to do, is highlight the principle that too many of them now adhere to: exploiting their workforce for their own personal gain. Taking advantage of recessional conditions to pay piss poor wages while maximising personal gain. You are correct that Asian economies are booming. What you don't say is that they are competing for outsourced business from the UKE. Asian workers are on the same basic pittance---like for like---than those here in the UKE. How to maximise profits = set people against each other to see who'll work most cheaply. By endorsing such global capitalist principles, small business owners like yourself (no matter how good/honest/generous) sets themselves up for failure. Global economics is a fact of life you have to live with it. You have to compete. If you dont you end up like PIG countries . Balderdash! Think smarter! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 21:23:05 GMT -1
Put it bluntly How you run your country is your affair If anything is given free its not valued.
So we agree to differ on best way to run a country I read bit about your armed forces the way they were described in White Paper they couldnt defend country against a pack of determined brownies. You would have to rely on others to defend you, not a good situation. We look after our needy and we dont blame any shortfall on others, blame your own governments which you voted in. No one else is to blame (A big bhoy dun it and he ran away)
Bejasus. Sorry, I have to laugh out loud These things enumerated above are free at the point of delivery, yes. They are not FREE, in that these are the ways that Scottish taxpayers wish their money to be spent. It's hard to believe that so many still labour under the misconception that England subsidises Scotland. We spend our own money in the ways we choose, which are different in many respects from the way England chooses. Re armed forces, yet again you give it ridicule that we'd prefer to have a defence force and reach agreement with other like-minded non-combatative neighbours to reach mutual agreement to work together should a major threat arise. An independent Scotland would threaten no-one, militarily. We're not interested in being a world power. Was there anything else in the White Paper that caused you bother, Oz? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 21:34:39 GMT -1
And yet again, we hear the old-fashioned view that anyone who believes in equality of opportunity, encouraging our entrepreneurs while having a social conscience is in fact, reaching for the moon. What a very sorry world-view that is. Perhaps you consider it as sanguine, all-knowing, world-weary. At no point EVER would I drag down entrepreneurs. What I WOULD DO, and will continue to do, is highlight the principle that too many of them now adhere to: exploiting their workforce for their own personal gain. Taking advantage of recessional conditions to pay piss poor wages while maximising personal gain. You are correct that Asian economies are booming. What you don't say is that they are competing for outsourced business from the UKE. Asian workers are on the same basic pittance---like for like---than those here in the UKE. How to maximise profits = set people against each other to see who'll work most cheaply. By endorsing such global capitalist principles, small business owners like yourself (no matter how good/honest/generous) sets themselves up for failure. Global economics is a fact of life you have to live with it. You have to compete. If you dont you end up like PIG countries . Balderdash! Think smarter! I believe Scotland can compete while at the same time endorsing fair pay for a fair day's work. Perhaps an uncomfortable prospect for those who fully endorse capitalism and all its extremes. We have both global and niche markets and we know how to use them to benefit our entrepreneurs and wealth creators. We also have enough of a social conscience to redistribute our wealth. The two are not mutually exclusive. |
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Post by ozneil on Oct 16, 2014 23:22:08 GMT -1
Its really pointless going on .
We are poles apart and living with very different lifestyles. Your system certainly wouldnt suit me which probably says more about me than the system. I look at the system here and the system in UK They are very different.
Your White paper does not alter the basic system of a nanny state.
But as I said right back at the beginning I dont live there and dont know enough background to have a definitive opinion and luckily you dont have to convince me and you havent. You asked and you got my impressions. btw the fiscal policy spelled disaster
I have watched the demise of the UK for years and it saddens me greatly. The quest for independence would, I think, weaken it even further.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 23:54:17 GMT -1
Its really pointless going on . We are poles apart and living with very different lifestyles. Your system certainly wouldnt suit me which probably says more about me than the system. I look at the system here and the system in UK They are very different. Your White paper does not alter the basic system of a nanny state. But as I said right back at the beginning I dont live there and dont know enough background to have a definitive opinion and luckily you dont have to convince me and you havent. You asked and you got my impressions. btw the fiscal policy spelled disaster I have watched the demise of the UK for years and it saddens me greatly. The quest for independence would, I think, weaken it even further. Yes, I agree, Oz, it's pointless because we are indeed poles apart. You live in a 'new' country that's been able to fashion itself without burden of 1000 years of politics/genetics/divides, apart, of course, for the colonisation of an indigenous population and culture. But I digress... I'm fairly confident that you've neither read nor understood the underpinning of the White Paper. Why would you, it's 600+ pages of stuff you say you're not concerned with. So let's leave that aside for now. I don't feel the need to convince you of anything. As you say, your vote doesn't count here. But you've raised bonafide questions and been given bonafide replies from several here. Re the fiscal policy spelling disaster; oh dear me, no. You've fallen for the disinformation like so many others who can't be arsed finding out the facts. As if an oil producing nation could get poorer, did you really HONESTLY believe that? You talk of the demise of the UK. In what respect? The UK economy is pretty strong, globally. Do you mean factors that are not about fiscal health, if so, to what 'decline' do you refer? I'd also like to know your reasons for leaving the country that benefitted you by educating you free of charge and why you think it's NOW ok to charge young people for what YOU got for free. Shall I hold my breath? |
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Post by ozneil on Oct 17, 2014 0:09:14 GMT -1
No need to reply to most of it you make statements of your opinion.
Iread the 600 pages or most of them but you are right I dont understand the background I couldnt possibly I dont live there I keep on reiterating that. If I did I might think differently.
but waht indigenous culture do you mean? You been reading lefty propaganda again?
You may have oil but you dont control it the oil companies do. They can turn off supply at their whim and not a bloody thing you can do about it. The rest of fiscal policy is nonsense.
As for my eduction and my reasons for living in both UK & Oz Thats my business so dont hold breath waiting for an answer
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 22:10:29 GMT -1
No need to reply to most of it you make statements of your opinion. Iread the 600 pages or most of them but you are right I dont understand the background I couldnt possibly I dont live there I keep on reiterating that. If I did I might think differently. but waht indigenous culture do you mean? You been reading lefty propaganda again? You may have oil but you dont control it the oil companies do. They can turn off supply at their whim and not a bloody thing you can do about it. The rest of fiscal policy is nonsense. As for my eduction and my reasons for living in both UK & Oz Thats my business so dont hold breath waiting for an answer OK, maybe that was a bit of a tricky question. So let's leave your personal decision out of it and look at the wider question: you and many like yourself--and myself-- were educated free of charge here in Scotland. Yet you seem to endorse the notion that students following in your footsteps should expect to pay for their education. You said back there: "If anything is given free, it is not valued." Do you believe that only those who can afford fees should be able to access higher education? Do you believe that only those who can afford private medical insurance should have access to high quality healthcare? Because that is the way the UKE is heading. Much fun is made in certain quarters of the 'underclass'. Except that if the Tories and UKIP are allowed to rule, unfettered by opposition, the majority of folks outwith the M25 will be that underclass. It's happening on our watch. These people are fucking terrifying. |
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Post by ozneil on Oct 21, 2014 23:03:35 GMT -1
OK, maybe that was a bit of a tricky question. So let's leave your personal decision out of it and look at the wider question: you and many like yourself--and myself-- were educated free of charge here in Scotland. Yet you seem to endorse the notion that students following in your footsteps should expect to pay for their education. You said back there: "If anything is given free, it is not valued." Do you believe that only those who can afford fees should be able to access higher education? Do you believe that only those who can afford private medical insurance should have access to high quality healthcare? Because that is the way the UKE is heading. Much fun is made in certain quarters of the 'underclass'. Except that if the Tories and UKIP are allowed to rule, unfettered by opposition, the majority of folks outwith the M25 will be that underclass. It's happening on our watch. These people are fucking terrifying. Right ; Now dont tell me what I think!  Tertiary education was full fee paying in my day.NOT FREE If good enough got scholarships could get grants as well if required. It discouraged the "professional student" that stays on at Uni for years and years coz they like the life and they get grants. It encouraged people to study hard and get through as quick as possible to keep debt down . Here assuming no scholarships or grants students pay 50% of fees. Grants are provided in cases of hardship, Loans are repaid on a sliding scale dependent on income. Some times fees are waived for service eg a teacher or nurse prepared to do 2 years in the bush. Why shouldnt those that can afford it pay for health care?? it helps support the less affluent get good service The same standards apply to both private and public health care Only difference being a better room, choice of surgeon and prob less waiting time for elective surgery. Urgent attention is identical even to hospital and medical staff for everyone If surgery is elective why should the taxpayer pay? Dont judge our system by your standards. We are a very different country with different standards. UK health service is a mess.  PS it might be better to look at various other systems of healthcare and education and drop the "holier than thou", PC attitude. You would probably find a better system. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 19:27:33 GMT -1
Right ; Now dont tell me what I think! Tertiary education was full fee paying in my day.NOT FREE If good enough got scholarships could get grants as well if required. It discouraged the "professional student" that stays on at Uni for years and years coz they like the life and they get grants. It encouraged people to study hard and get through as quick as possible to keep debt down . Here assuming no scholarships or grants students pay 50% of fees. Grants are provided in cases of hardship, Loans are repaid on a sliding scale dependent on income. Some times fees are waived for service eg a teacher or nurse prepared to do 2 years in the bush. Why shouldnt those that can afford it pay for health care?? it helps support the less affluent get good service The same standards apply to both private and public health care Only difference being a better room, choice of surgeon and prob less waiting time for elective surgery. Urgent attention is identical even to hospital and medical staff for everyone If surgery is elective why should the taxpayer pay? Dont judge our system by your standards. We are a very different country with different standards. UK health service is a mess. PS it might be better to look at various other systems of healthcare and education and drop the "holier than thou", PC attitude. You would probably find a better system. You must be older than I thought, Oz as people my age and a little bit older did not have to pay tuition fees and mostly got grants as well. These were means-tested, depending on parental income. In my case, I didn't get the full grant as my father had a professional job at a time when one income could keep a family in essentials, if not luxuries..) Accordingly, I had two jobs throughout Uni, one in the bookies on a Saturday and the other in Charlie Parkers in Exchange Square a few nights a week. Therefore had no debt on graduating. Here, Scottish students studying in Scotland pay no tuition fees and can opt for loans for living costs if away from home. I know many indebted up to £40K on graduating, much much more for those who study and pay fees on top elsewhere. Likewise loans are repaid on a sliding scale, once you start to earn £21,000. I can't imagine how it must feel to graduate at 21/22 with a millstone of debt starting off in your career. As for healthcare, I happen to believe that our NHS system is the best in the world. Nobody pays at point of use, but through our graduated taxes. This method DOES take care of the needs of the less affluent: to give an example, a staff member on half my wage pays one third of what I do in National Insurance contributions, and less than a quarter of general tax. I honestly believe if the UK reverts to the US model, whereby those who can't afford medical insurance premiums are asked for their credit card before being treated, is just plain WRONG. This has to put off the less well-off from seeking treatment-- the costs of which in the US are insanely high. How can this be right? In the UK people can, if they wish, opt to go 'private'. Some have BUPA insurance via their jobs, but not many. It'd be wrong to object to people doing that if they want to, as they're already paying into the NHS via their taxes anyway. I'm not convinced you get better treatment, myself, but others might disagree? No need to take a pop at my 'PC attitude'--I don't think it is PC to believe that education and healthcare are completely fundamental to a functioning, healthy society. I want the Scottish people to be as educated and healthy as possible, and I for one am totally happy to have my taxes ringfenced into those areas, and not spent/wasted on layers and layers of UK government/nuclear weapons/illegal wars. Your perspective and mine is different, Oz, understandably. You live in a pretty classless society whereas in the UK we live in one of the most unequal societies in the world. Things are different from here. |
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Post by ozneil on Oct 23, 2014 22:05:48 GMT -1
I graduated in 1959 . Free uni started here in 1972 but didnt last long before present system was introduced cant remember when  ie sharing of fees. In my day grants and scholarships helped out and you could join the CMF (army reserve) and they paid a fair bit of fees . I did notice the class distinction. Just after I arrived in UK I went with my then boss to take notes and advise on "doing-up" a big house near Cartocharn?? on Loch Lomond. It belonged to Captain whatever in the Guards ( I knew that,I saw wedding pic with him in full uniform in lounge) My boss was really grovelling to Mrs Captain, nearly asking permission to lick her shoes! She was a nice looking lady so I decided to practice my antipodean charms on her. We had a pleasant little chat about the house which was their main house, (though they spent most of there time in London), Lock Lomond and Australia. Later my boss gave me hell for chatting her up, wasnt my place etc, It astounded me. I had behaved impeccably and hadnt overtly perved on her boobs or legs!!! However. Back to health will try and explain system here which isnt the Yank System and I think much better than UK model. I have lived with both. ok Cost everyone pays 1.5% of gross income this entitles you to free doctor who bills government for consultation (bulk billing) and free hospital. Waiting times for both can the long. If needy you are provided with a "Commonwealth Card" which pays prescriptions etc etc. Its all free but slow due to demand. I can go to any doctor I want too without having to be on their list. I can choose to go to a private doctor who bills me $75 (get $36 back from Government) advantage I am seen at appointed time and I know doc dont have to take pot luck. The Govt encourages the better off to take out private health insurance by providing tax breaks ans penalising the very wealthy if the dont... About 33% of people are in private health. Its a bit like buying a car . you buy basic then add "extras" up to you. I have opted for, hospital only Thats everything from the minute you step in door to the minute you step out and includes post care. ($100/month) but I could add dental, optictian, and all sorts of bells and whistles at extra cost. If an emergency would be whipped off to nearest hospital that has the necessary skills to treat, by helicopter if necessary irrespective of whether public or private patient. |
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Post by notanimby on Oct 25, 2014 7:23:11 GMT -1
Whilst celebrating the Johan Lamont I came across this www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z9v_4htRbd8One of the SNP's best assets has thrown in the towel, ironically saying the reason for it was London interference in Scottish affairs - now if only there was a way recently of stopping that |
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You need entrepreneurs to create wealth and provide jobs. Dont try to drag them down rather try lift the people up. You got the governments you wanted since 1945. You have been feather-bedded and reality is starting to bite. Watch the Asian economies they are booming and stealing your & EU markets hands down. You need a massive rethink and you have to reduce debt so you can compete on a world market. To survive with a decent standard of living you must think and act globally
ie sharing of fees. In my day grants and scholarships helped out and you could join the CMF (army reserve) and they paid a fair bit of fees .