No more winter heating benefit for ex-pats!

[Deleted]

Ah, the divine Ian Duncan-B'stard-Smith has decreed that his Tory government will withdraw the right to this benefit for people domiciled in warmer countries over the winter.

Currently £200-300 is paid to everyone over 60 in wintertime. Those who have paid in to the UK tax system all their lives.

It's particularly welcome in colder parts of the UK by those on a pension. And rightly so. UK state pension is the lowest in Europe.

Should ex-pats get it? Should wealthy UK residents get it? (Many have refused to accept it but are told they can't give it back, WEIRD!--too much admin, apparently)

I'd imagine those who fire over to Spain for a cheap three month hotel stay probably also have homes here in the UK that need some kind of heating over the winter to prevent damage to pipes etc. I don't grudge them their few hundred quid, personally.

What I DO grudge is tax evaders and avoiders, big companies or individuals such as MPs claiming ridiculous allowances on the back of workers' tax.

How much will be saved as a result of withdrawing this benefit? Apparently it's cost 130 million quid in 10 years. 13 mil a year. What does tax evasion cost?

AND another thing, I bet if everyone overwintering stayed here instead, the NHS bill to care for their various ailments caused by the cold would top that and more.

But IDS and his hideous henchmen won't have thought of that. Oh no.

[ozneil]

The Brit ex-pats here dont.

They are kicking up about some perceived loss of cash from their UK pensions. As it has never really concerned me I have ignored it. I reckon if the moved out here after they retired they are entitled to their UK OA pension(its not reciprocal) If the came before they retired it was for their benefit so ....tough

[Deleted]

I think it's not about permanent ex-pats, Oz.
But those who have their main home in the UK and over-winter elsewhere.

There's another horrendous outpouring of invective dahn Sarth about this today. People are angry that they can no longer claim their £200-300 a year if they overwinter in Spain or wherever. The UKIPPERs particularly are saying they should be able to keep what they've contributed to and that immigrant workers (although they contribute their tax here) shouldn't be able to claim family allowance (about £20 per week per child) for families living elsewhere in Europe.

Such is the state of the UK just now. People fighting over scraps from the table.
It really is awful to witness.

In my view, people who contribute their taxes here are entitled to the benefits, no matter where they live some or all of the time.

It's the complete bastards who contrive to pay NO TAX AT ALL who should be getting seriously prosecuted. WE PAY for their upkeep: whether schooling, roads, lighting, refuse, NHS, public transport subsidy, you name it!

[ozneil]

Not the only people

From my fav blogger/columnist Tim Blair(no relation)

Many more Australians receive the disability pension than are unemployed. Here are two of their stories:

A disability pensioner of 15 years must repay $73,000 after it was found he owned many properties, raked in vast sums in rent, owned luxury cars including a Rolls-Royce, and had his own poultry farm business.

Peter Kooyoufas was on the DSP from March 1996 until April 2012, when it was found he’d bought a Cranbourne South farm for $530,000.


And then there is this fellow:


A Sydney man who convinced a doctor that he had limb injuries so severe that he couldn’t dress himself, caught a train and walked carrying a backpack to a hearing to appeal the government’s rejection of his Disability Support Pension claim.

Kamel El Cheikh, who emigrated from Lebanon in 2005, had obtained a doctor’s sign-off on the necessary points to apply for the DSP.

But the claim was rejected by two government agencies and again by the administrative Appeals Tribunal of Australia before Christmas.


The straw that broke Kamel’s back, you might say.

[Deleted]

Dec 31, 2014 20:46:07 GMT -1 ozneil said:

Not the only people

From my fav blogger/columnist Tim Blair(no relation)

Many more Australians receive the disability pension than are unemployed. Here are two of their stories:

A disability pensioner of 15 years must repay $73,000 after it was found he owned many properties, raked in vast sums in rent, owned luxury cars including a Rolls-Royce, and had his own poultry farm business.

Peter Kooyoufas was on the DSP from March 1996 until April 2012, when it was found he’d bought a Cranbourne South farm for $530,000.


And then there is this fellow:


A Sydney man who convinced a doctor that he had limb injuries so severe that he couldn’t dress himself, caught a train and walked carrying a backpack to a hearing to appeal the government’s rejection of his Disability Support Pension claim.

Kamel El Cheikh, who emigrated from Lebanon in 2005, had obtained a doctor’s sign-off on the necessary points to apply for the DSP.

But the claim was rejected by two government agencies and again by the administrative Appeals Tribunal of Australia before Christmas.


The straw that broke Kamel’s back, you might say.

Oh wait!

NOBODY endorses benefit fraud, Oz. Can we just err, get that straight from the off?

But what we see here in the UKE is certain right wing media HIGHLIGHTING each and every case of fraud with no overall proportion whatsoever. This is a tactic used to help our Tory government cut welfare benefits, don't you see?

By vilifying those few that DO take the effing piss and cheat, they're promoting strong views amongst really stupid people that cheating is the norm.

IT IS NOT.

For the record, in my opinion, if people 60+ who overwinter outwith the UKE have contributed their taxes here, they're entitled to their heating benefit. It might be good to make it easier for them to hand it back into a general pot should they so wish. But I don't believe it should be means-tested.

If you've reached 60+ and paid in all your life, I'd never deny a couple of hundred quid a year personally. Happy to contribute to that out of my taxes.

NOT HAPPY to shore up the huge chasm in tax resources by avoiders/evaders though. OH NO.

[ozneil]

wont enter into UK politics

However

To my mind it shouldnt be about ENTITLEMENT it should be about NEED It may come as a surprise to you but I am a tad over 60 and I have paid taxes all my life so I should be entitled to all the goodies but as I dont need them why should I get them? It would be better for money to be distributed to those that require it.

Give the needy a bit more and forget the bloody "ENTITLED TO" bit.

Stop "all getting equal shares" shit lots of people just dont need it.

How about a little more compassion and stop yelling "MY ENTITLEMENTS"


gees and Im not even a socialist

[Deleted]

Jan 2, 2015 20:03:42 GMT -1 ozneil said:

wont enter into UK politics

However

To my mind it shouldnt be about ENTITLEMENT it should be about NEED It may come as a surprise to you but I am a tad over 60 and I have paid taxes all my life so I should be entitled to all the goodies but as I dont need them why should I get them? It would be better for money to be distributed to those that require it.

Give the needy a bit more and forget the bloody "ENTITLED TO" bit.

Stop "all getting equal shares" shit lots of people just dont need it.

How about a little more compassion and stop yelling "MY ENTITLEMENTS"


gees and Im not even a socialist

Oz, taken in the context of what I mentioned earlier about UK pensions being the lowest in Europe, and granted somewhat grudgingly to those who've paid in all their lives, I have no issue with the winter heating benefit for the over 60s.

It's a very highly valued benefit for those particularly in the *colder* parts of the UK and can make the difference between turning on the heating..or not..

It's actually CHEAPER for many to overwinter outwith the UK, given the energy price stranglehold we're all in. And the health benefits from being in a warm place can't be underestimated. I don't grudge paying the heating benefit because I know the vast majority NEED it, one way or another.

If we're talking NEED, we're also talking the NEED to keep folks healthy and well, shirley?
Is that an entitlement or a luxury? Personally I think it's a basic NEED.

Look, Oz, not to labour the point, but in the UK we have foodbanks in every town and city, people are generally afraid to put their heating on, and the Red Cross--ffs!-- are distributing food parcels routinely, the only country in Europe where that's happening.

The problem is the vast chasm of inequality that's now the norm in the UK. The majority of benefit claimants are people who are IN WORK.

I could live much more cheaply if I pitched out to Southern Europe for three months in the winter. I don't blame ANYONE over 60 that does and I'm happy to subsidise em.

[ozneil]

Im not getting into UK politics but your politicians have really managed to f**k up a once great country

But there are needy everywhere. A while ago I was at Aldi's check out about 2 behind an elderly lady who was hunting through her purse for money. She couldnt find enough cash to pay her bill. The lady in front of me asked how much she was short was told about $3 I know she was delving into her bag I was reaching for my hip pocket when a guy shoved a $10 note into the Check out chick's hand and told her to take it out of that and give the change to the customer and he was gone.

That shouldnt have had to happen in a wealthy country but it did, even here people are struggling so give the benefits to them and not those that can live without them .

Here you have to prove you need them and being public (ours) money why not!

[notanimby]

Jan 2, 2015 21:20:54 GMT -1 ozneil said:

Im not getting into UK politics but your politicians have really managed to f**k up a once great country

But there are needy everywhere. A while ago I was at Aldi's check out about 2 behind an elderly lady who was hunting through her purse for money. She couldnt find enough cash to pay her bill. The lady in front of me asked how much she was short was told about $3 I know she was delving into her bag I was reaching for my hip pocket when a guy shoved a $10 note into the Check out chick's hand and told her to take it out of that and give the change to the customer and he was gone.

That shouldnt have had to happen in a wealthy country but it did, even here people are struggling so give the benefits to them and not those that can live without them .

Here you have to prove you need them and being public (ours) money why not!

Your benefit system bureaucracy may work different from ours - but here its easier and cheaper to implement universal benefits for, in the grand scheme of things, as its much cheaper than means testing for such "trifling" amounts such as involved in winter fuel payments.

Same with free prescriptions - its manifestly cheaper to not charge for them, as 90% wouldnt be charged for anyways, this means that the remaining "charged for" 10% costs many millions more to collect than it actually costs to dispense - the knock on effect of charging is that people don't take items on the prescription as they cant afford it, meaning that they end up sicker in the long run and cost the NHS even more money.
Some tories seem to think that everyone ( who they describe as well off in engerlandshire - earning @£16K) should pay - well why dont the proponents of this just ask their doctor to write thgem up a private prescription for their stuff, they'll get a shock then as to how much it costs

I do acknowledge that means testing is correct for certain benefits but that has to work both ways - meaning that those who are the poorest in our society get their benefits cut by 10% then the richest should get their taxes increased by the same amount percentage wise

[Deleted]

Jan 4, 2015 9:13:57 GMT -1 notanimby said:

Jan 2, 2015 21:20:54 GMT -1 ozneil said:

Im not getting into UK politics but your politicians have really managed to f**k up a once great country

But there are needy everywhere. A while ago I was at Aldi's check out about 2 behind an elderly lady who was hunting through her purse for money. She couldnt find enough cash to pay her bill. The lady in front of me asked how much she was short was told about $3 I know she was delving into her bag I was reaching for my hip pocket when a guy shoved a $10 note into the Check out chick's hand and told her to take it out of that and give the change to the customer and he was gone.

That shouldnt have had to happen in a wealthy country but it did, even here people are struggling so give the benefits to them and not those that can live without them .

Here you have to prove you need them and being public (ours) money why not!

Your benefit system bureaucracy may work different from ours - but here its easier and cheaper to implement universal benefits for, in the grand scheme of things, as its much cheaper than means testing for such "trifling" amounts such as involved in winter fuel payments.

Same with free prescriptions - its manifestly cheaper to not charge for them, as 90% wouldnt be charged for anyways, this means that the remaining "charged for" 10% costs many millions more to collect than it actually costs to dispense - the knock on effect of charging is that people don't take items on the prescription as they cant afford it, meaning that they end up sicker in the long run and cost the NHS even more money.
Some tories seem to think that everyone ( who they describe as well off in engerlandshire - earning @£16K) should pay - well why dont the proponents of this just ask their doctor to write thgem up a private prescription for their stuff, they'll get a shock then as to how much it costs

I do acknowledge that means testing is correct for certain benefits but that has to work both ways - meaning that those who are the poorest in our society get their benefits cut by 10% then the richest should get their taxes increased by the same amount percentage wise

Excellent points, Nota! And a brilliant idea that last one.
The thing is 'rich' people very often baulk at the idea of tax rises; as we know, there's very much a *blame* culture going on re all manner of benefits in the UK. The I'm Alright Jack view, that if they can succeed, then anyone can....


Now I do believe in aspiration and hard work, of course I do, but blame culture is a callous stance to me, and very much a Tory standard viewpoint or should I say, principle!

Almost half the benefits bill is spent on old age pensions, which are NOT a benefit to my mind, but a right---as people have paid in via their taxes to the previous generation just as we pay in for our elder generation.

Unemployment benefits are only a few percent of the total. However 60 million families in the UK (that has to be pretty much everyone with under 16s) gets child benefit (not means tested) and many MANY in low paid work get top up tax credits.

My point is that if the minimum wage became a LIVING wage, we'd not have to subsidise conglomerates who pay the very least they can legally get away with! This infuriates me.

As I've said, I think making it easier to 'return' heating benefit would see very many wealthier OAPs doing just that.

And finally there are BILLIONS of pounds worth of unclaimed benefits in the pot- every year since Nye Bevan started the Welfare State, this has been the case.

Benefit fraud amounts to less than 1% of the total.
Tax evasion? If everyone paid their due tax, the UK debt would be cancelled out.

[ozneil]

perhaps coz we are "down under" we work the other way round. We assume everyone can look after themslves but if the cant we help them. Its on a sliding scale. eg you get pharmaceutical benefits, reduced costs, if you earn below $50,000 and get them free if you are a pensioner. Lots of other things like rates, rent, car registration are subsidised to varying scales dependent on income as well as varying amount of pensions.. The only thing the "wealthy" get is a $2.50 a day bus train and ferry ticket. This is a bit tongue in cheek as the wealthy wouldnt use busses or trains.

The wealthy dont even get an Old Age Pension though they have paid tax all their lives ... the money saved goes to the needy and thats the way it should be (mmm thats me back to "My Entitlements" again "its mines so I want it whether I need it or not and bugger everyone else; someone else can pay for them" )

Only one that is universal is the ex-serviceman who has served overseas gets a "gold card" that gets about everything at very reduced cost (and so they should!)

main difference is we dont want a "nanny state" but do want a safety net for the needy. We like being independent of the whims of pollies and Public servants.

[bormes]

RESPONSIBLE Politicians
And
INDEPENDANT Subjects would be great for the UK
And
An INDEPENDANT SCOTLAND would be the best for SCOTLAND!!
Lol

[Deleted]

Jan 4, 2015 19:40:55 GMT -1 ozneil said:

perhaps coz we are "down under" we work the other way round. We assume everyone can look after themslves but if the cant we help them. Its on a sliding scale. eg you get pharmaceutical benefits, reduced costs, if you earn below $50,000 and get them free if you are a pensioner. Lots of other things like rates, rent, car registration are subsidised to varying scales dependent on income as well as varying amount of pensions.. The only thing the "wealthy" get is a $2.50 a day bus train and ferry ticket. This is a bit tongue in cheek as the wealthy wouldnt use busses or trains.

The wealthy dont even get an Old Age Pension though they have paid tax all their lives ... the money saved goes to the needy and thats the way it should be (mmm thats me back to "My Entitlements" again "its mines so I want it whether I need it or not and bugger everyone else; someone else can pay for them" )

Only one that is universal is the ex-serviceman who has served overseas gets a "gold card" that gets about everything at very reduced cost (and so they should!)

main difference is we dont want a "nanny state" but do want a safety net for the needy. We like being independent of the whims of pollies and Public servants.

Genuine question, Oz.
How does everyone over the age of 65 support themselves in Australia? Is it a requirement that all have private pensions?
How does that work if people can't afford to have saved throughout their lives into private pensions?

Is your OAP means-tested?

[ozneil]

Rolo rote

Genuine question, Oz.
How does everyone over the age of 65 support themselves in Australia? Is it a requirement that all have private pensions?
How does that work if people can't afford to have saved throughout their lives into private pensions?

Genuine answer I hope

Ok since 1980s employers are required to pay 9% of employees salary into a recognised Super fun chosen by the Employee. Most employees go with the one the employer recommends but they dont have too. Most employers try to choose wisely and use a large recognised fund Some are very good some are not so good but most in long term give a good lump of Super. Employees can use " salary Sacrifice " ie put some of wages into super and get tax benefits . Super cannot be withdrawn before retirement or death except in very exception circumstances as ok'd by the Tax Office (they administer super) You can roll over your super to another company if you feel they are better. When I retired I rolled my Super into an Aproved Self Managed Super Fund where I look after my own funds rather than fund managers.

Thats about 40% (I think could be +/-)of retirees non reliant on government support.

The remainder

A pension is paid on a sliding scale depending on income/assets The more you have the less you get , dont ask me figures I dont know, The really needy get enough to live on and tun a car if they are fairly frugal. Starts with a basic of I think $250 a week then starts the "add-ons" partner, carer , rent, rates, utilities (water,light & power), medicine etc etc These start at virtually nil for someone that is just under the predetermined level which I believe isn't too bad up to enough to live fully on. Part of problem is you just cant stop people wasting money on horses, booze, drugs etc, they have to be catered for eg food banks and charity

Of course the whole thing is means tested through "Centrelink" If you need you have to ask If you dont ask you wont get it ...simple

Going back to the $250 a week our household food bill is under $200 a week and we live on good food.


As Clear as mud .. if anything yo not clear about ask ... I prob wont know

[Deleted]

I do have a question, actually

Is the 250 dollars state pension per person per week?

I ask because here a single person gets about £100 or so, but a couple don't get double that, very far from it.

There's talk here of mandatory pension contributions being taken out of salary, whether you like it or not. On the face of it, it would seem like a sensible idea.

Then you remember that your own government has indeed, over time, ROBBED your pension pot and you get back--if you're lucky--a fraction of what you paid in.

Many, including me, would prefer to invest/save their salary in ways to best advantage us if we ever actually reach old age. Such as property or other tangible assets..