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Post by ozneil on Mar 31, 2013 20:23:22 GMT -1
What I don't understand is why you speak so disparagingly about people who work in academia and for the public services. Perhaps you could explain, along with what you consider to be 'real' jobs. Or are you one of those people who just can't see that there are all sorts of jobs that need to be done to ensure society functions? Gees you want me to be serious. OK Take public service. There are many fine people there making sure the country is running smoothly and bye and large they do a great job. THEN We have the periphery who have largely politically inspired jobs, a lot are political appointees and owe their allegiance to a political party where they try to exert there ideology on the populace with no real benefit to the country. Department of Climate springs to mind. as does the Pink Batts scheme This class of Public Servant, usually with an Arts degree, is more interested in ideology and increasing the staff they have under them, more staff more prestige more $, than in governing, try getting a decision out of any one of them They are however very big on committees and conferences. They are in fact drones they achieve virtually nothing but cost the country heaps. They are full of their own importance. Academia is about as bad. many are brilliant and perform fantastic work . Too many Lecturers and students are desperately trying to get their PHDs. To get them they must have at least 5 papers published. Some of the subjects they choose are laughable but they are allowed to get their doctorate in things like" Habitat of the lesser 3 toed green tree frog" These people have to get their names known to get ahead. They come up with the most ridiculous statements to try and get publicity. Just look at the latest learned treatise on diet. Is fat good or bad for you at the moment? Same with Global Warming based on ratshit computer models none of which have been proved correct but they still spend millions to try and prove they are right. (this example also appiles to Government). In my own field Universities are still teaching techniques which we havent used in the field for many years. These people do nothing to advance the community Both these classes of people can be found debating their profound knowledge in cafes in the inner city Putting all right with the world but with little or no actual experience of working in it With the great wind turbine fiasco you will of course know that they kill more birds pa than the Exxon Valdez disaster did!
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Post by minime on Mar 31, 2013 20:48:56 GMT -1
Thanks for that, Oz. I appreciate your response.
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Post by ozneil on Mar 31, 2013 21:33:32 GMT -1
Thanks for that, Oz. I appreciate your response. No probs My response was of necessity referring to Oz. I assume UK is much the same
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Post by ozneil on Apr 1, 2013 4:15:20 GMT -1
Mini
More on the drones. Some great Labor Party think tank thought it would be a wonderful idea to impose an additional tax on the big successful miners. They estimated it would bring in $2Bn in first year. Pollies thought it a great idea and the Public Service went to it in co-operation with the mining industry. They were making no progress so the PM (a wonderfull negotiator) & the World's best treasurer , Wayne Swan, Aka the goose, took over negotiations and in a very short time agreement was reached with payments to made half yearly . First payment due Dec 2012. We were all deafened by the sound of self blown trumpets.
Come end of December first payments were collected. They amounted to exactly nil, zilch, zero not a brass razoo. The Labour party were great on ideas but not on economics.
It takes great skill to draft and implement a tax that raises nothing but keeps a lot of Public servants employed
If it wasnt so serious it would be a joke.
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Post by bormes on Apr 1, 2013 6:19:59 GMT -1
Not surprisingly I agree with Oz, particularly about non producers.
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Post by minime on Apr 1, 2013 10:50:32 GMT -1
I agree that a job needs to have substance and a purpose and creating jobs that have no purpose is pointless and a waste of money whatever sector it's in.
What I struggle with is this idea which, at least initially Oz, you seemed to be subscribing to, that people who work in the public sector and in academia don't have 'real' jobs.
For me, both public services and what could be termed academic roles, are as important a part of society's fabric as any other job and are 'real' jobs. It's the roles that have no purpose that shouldn't be there and that's the fault of those who create such jobs. However the vast majority of jobs, whatever they are, are valid and purposeful and productive jobs:
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Post by bormes on Apr 1, 2013 16:21:05 GMT -1
I think what you are missing, mini, it is NOT all the people in the public sector, however ther are a huge number of them and academics who do not put in a proper day's work and the amount of duplication in the public sector, particularly the NHS is just enormous. It is actually bad management that is at fault, mainly I think and when you think back to just one example when Brown the then Prime minister "made" 500,000 jobs in the NHS, almost none were in actual nursing, they were in paper pushing jobs and that is what press pick up on and show the incompetence of the system. I think of the current carry on with the "bedroom tax" which in fairness is NOT a tax, although I think it is wrong, I do however think the benefit system NEEDS fixing mainly due again to the problems down in the South East, unfortunately labour never had the courage to attempt to fix it as many of their votes come from people on benefits, like the immigrants who vote for them too.
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Post by ozneil on Apr 1, 2013 20:01:10 GMT -1
Mini read what I said and not what you think I said
When you asked for clarification you got that too
Obviously all Public Servants and Academics are not latte slurping Chardonnay inbibers that frequent inner city cafes. These cafes seem to attract the afore mentioned whingers.
Now as to "real jobs" my practise works in heavy construction. We are been increasing bombarded by paperwork from the government. It is obvious from most of the petty requirements that the people who formatted the policy have not the foggiest idea of how the industry works. They are making work employment for themselves.
One thing I have to do now is give someone 3 warnings in writing no less before I fire them. I fired one guy on the spot after seeing the his attempts at design , I wouldnt trust him to design foundations for a telephone box, yet he had a uni degree. I certainly wouldnt give him a second or third chance.
I was hauled before the "Wrongful Dismissal Tribunal" for firing him on the spot for incompetence he said it was racially motivated. I showed the tribunal samples of the work he had done pointing out the errors. It was obvious they hadnt a clue what I was talking about. Not a technical person amongst them yet they were judging dismissal on technical issues. I think the only thing that swayed them in my favour was a group pic of my staff, European, SE Asian and Sri Lanken. The postscipt to that little episode was no one in Australia would employ him
Queensland had an election 2 years ago. The new Premier reduced the Public Service by 14,0000 yes 14,000. The Public Still works well. so obviously a lot were "Underemployed"
I could go on about 3 monthly "Building Activity Statements" have of the questions having no relevance to anything meaningful But that is enough.
Once again based on my Australian experience but am sure something similar will also apply to UK
Like Bormes I employed staff and came up against petty meaningless government requirements every day.
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Post by ozneil on Apr 1, 2013 20:17:21 GMT -1
Almost off subject.
For my pains I was appointed an "independent" member of a staff selection panel for the State Public Works. The panel consisted of 3 Technical guys, 2 HR people and me... gees 6 people interviewing some poor guy I always felt sorry for them.
However one guy showed up He was new to Sydney and showed samples of his work, one being a Feasibility Study most impressive.
After he left I told the rest of the panel it was one of the best Feasibility Studies I had ever seen. I said it should be as I had done it when working in Queensland and as the project hadnt gone ahead it was filed away.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2013 23:09:32 GMT -1
I agree that a job needs to have substance and a purpose and creating jobs that have no purpose is pointless and a waste of money whatever sector it's in. What I struggle with is this idea which, at least initially Oz, you seemed to be subscribing to, that people who work in the public sector and in academia don't have 'real' jobs. For me, both public services and what could be termed academic roles, are as important a part of society's fabric as any other job and are 'real' jobs. It's the roles that have no purpose that shouldn't be there and that's the fault of those who create such jobs. However the vast majority of jobs, whatever they are, are valid and purposeful and productive jobs: Have to agree with you Mini. What some cry 'productive' as in 'producing' is fair enough but there's more to it across the board. I do agree with Bormes that the levels of management in the NHS are beyond reasonable and when it comes to H&S, yeah I agree, that's become an industry in itself in the UKE. But yet, I sense a faint ridicule, contempt even, going on there by OZ re arts degrees, like we're all up ourselves in some academia heaven in WE cafes. Totally unrepresentative of 99% of the arts grads I know, we're all out grafting, using our supposedly 'soft skills' and making our own contribution, not just to the life of the land but to the tax coffers. Sure we need a balance all 'expert' skills from engineers to medics to vets via economics, arts, psychology, languages to make it all work. We also need retail workers, garbiologists, welders, street sweepers, barbers, carers, plumbers, leccys, emergency services FFS. Where we are at now is this:
We have a UKE government that is deliberately setting people against each other. Divide and Rule style. Whipping up envy via complicit media (who mentioned the Daily Fail?) of those on benefits who allegedly have a better lifestyle than those on low to average wages. It's mostly fucking nonsense AND we know it. FACT; tax evasion in the UKE is estimated at £70 BILLION. Benefit 'fraud' is estimated at £1 BILLION. Go figure before slating people who work hard in whatever their job, private or publically funded. <btw chaps, civility costs nothing...can we just talk like we would if face to face pls?>
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Post by ozneil on Apr 1, 2013 23:36:08 GMT -1
Rolo rote
I hope I do. If I havent I apologise to anyone I have offended.
Once again people read things I havent written
First of all Rolo you are doing a job suited to your degree as are most peope be they arts degree or otherwise. They do jobs they have studied for.
The people I was referring to can generally be found in politically inspired Admin roles throughout the Public Service working in positions in which their degree has given them usually no training and they usually join the Public Service direct from University and have no employment experience. eg a grad in ancient Greek or political economy trying to administer a highly complex industry.
Hells teeth our "Climate Commissioner " is a professor in Paleontology. He may be able to pick bones but just doesnt know this job and spouts blooper after blooper. Probably stuff hes been fed by zealots.
EG Statement at height of drought The Murray Darling River system will be reduced to a trickle and the wetlands dry out . They will never be replenished unless........(Usual global warming claptrap)."
Fact The Murray Darling is running a banker with wetlands and other low lying areas flooded.
If it wasnt costing us money we dont have it would be hilarious.
I see I have missed out a response to Academia. I dont know about UK but here there are certain people that go on from studying one degree to the next in their 40s never had a job and still a student living on the public teat and telling all and sundry how to "sort" the nation. I find that type most strident about their rights.
I certainly have no feeling of contempt for arts degrees I feel that a fair number of those that choose the Public Service are not generally following their qualifications but are using them solely as a meal ticket.
Anyone with a degrees deserves congratulations. They arent handed out with the milk.
My Best man had an Honours Degree in Ancient Greek and something else(latin?) and became a teacher, shot off to Kenya for a while. On return he became Head Master of Dundee Boys High at a ridiculously early age. He unfortunately died of a heart attack while still in his 40s. Bugger it!!!!
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Post by bormes on Apr 2, 2013 6:41:12 GMT -1
Rolo, I genuinely can not see where Oz shows ridicule or contempt for workers, nor myself for that matter. Labour increased public service jobs enormously, you know that, brown in particular, they really were non jobs, That offends me, I understand anyone taking the job but it did nothing for our country. I think the NHS is too big to handle particularly when so much vested interest is involved. I mean unions put there members first, that means not patients first.
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Post by notanimby on Apr 2, 2013 15:37:19 GMT -1
I agree that a job needs to have substance and a purpose and creating jobs that have no purpose is pointless and a waste of money whatever sector it's in. What I struggle with is this idea which, at least initially Oz, you seemed to be subscribing to, that people who work in the public sector and in academia don't have 'real' jobs. For me, both public services and what could be termed academic roles, are as important a part of society's fabric as any other job and are 'real' jobs. It's the roles that have no purpose that shouldn't be there and that's the fault of those who create such jobs. However the vast majority of jobs, whatever they are, are valid and purposeful and productive jobs: Have to agree with you Mini. What some cry 'productive' as in 'producing' is fair enough but there's more to it across the board. I do agree with Bormes that the levels of management in the NHS are beyond reasonable and when it comes to H&S, yeah I agree, that's become an industry in itself in the UKE. But yet, I sense a faint ridicule, contempt even, going on there by OZ re arts degrees, like we're all up ourselves in some academia heaven in WE cafes. Totally unrepresentative of 99% of the arts grads I know, we're all out grafting, using our supposedly 'soft skills' and making our own contribution, not just to the life of the land but to the tax coffers. Sure we need a balance all 'expert' skills from engineers to medics to vets via economics, arts, psychology, languages to make it all work. We also need retail workers, garbiologists, welders, street sweepers, barbers, carers, plumbers, leccys, emergency services FFS. Where we are at now is this:
We have a UKE government that is deliberately setting people against each other. Divide and Rule style. Whipping up envy via complicit media (who mentioned the Daily Fail?) of those on benefits who allegedly have a better lifestyle than those on low to average wages. It's mostly fucking nonsense AND we know it. FACT; tax evasion in the UKE is estimated at £70 BILLION. Benefit 'fraud' is estimated at £1 BILLION. Go figure before slating people who work hard in whatever their job, private or publically funded. < btw chaps, civility costs nothing...can we just talk like we would if face to face pls?> I am doing - if someone acts like a prick, like minime - then they get tellt they are a prick
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Post by bormes on Apr 2, 2013 16:23:20 GMT -1
Mini is just like another we know Rolo, neither of them would as much as squeak if face to face.
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Post by ozneil on Apr 2, 2013 19:43:21 GMT -1
Someone elses perceived bad behavior and drop in manners is no reason for us to lower our standards. It achieves nothing.
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