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Post by westender on Jun 4, 2012 17:34:48 GMT -1
... has folded, due apparently to "lack of interest". www.queens-english-society.com/index.htmlwww.queens-english-society.com/about_contd.htmlGod damn the bloody internet. I KNEW this would happen! Thin end of the wedge. Watch them all tumble now, in short order... the gatekeepers of conscientious, clear communication. Tremendously depressing. I can see it all now. Slovenliness, ignorance, apathy and dullwittedness are winning, and civilisation is tumbling. It's a slow process and most people don't perceive it... but it is happening. I see instances of it, all around me, every day. This current situation will only go in one direction - the wrong one. www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/jun/04/queens-english-society-enuf-innit   From the teachers' section of the website: "I teach English in a comprehensive school. The poverty of language is depressing - but most of the staff do not recognise it as such because they were educated at a time when grammar was considered superfluous and their knowledge of it has been passed on by a system akin to the game of Chinese Whispers. Ignorance is breeding ignorance - especially among English teachers - and those of us who offer our services (tactfully) are dismissed as old-fashioned because newly trained teachers have been taught in the sixties mantras. At the same time, those who trained the inadequately trained have not been properly taught themselves and either do not recognise the rot which has set in or do not want to admit their part in allowing it to get this far. I have found, however, that children who are convinced that English is 'impossible' and 'beyond' them are interested and relieved to hear that there is logic to it which can be mastered - such a discovery gives them some sense of security; knowing that three clauses require two conjunctions to build them into a sentence is a sound start. I love my language and I am keen to pass it on with pride rather than having to teach its constructions apologetically in a whole-in-the-wall fashion."(spot the typo)  |
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Post by ozneil on Jun 4, 2012 21:30:14 GMT -1
I agree with Westie but not totally.
I drew up contracts and specifications for complex building projects where every word had to be the correct word and punctuation had to be spot on. Equally good, I hoped not better, people were poring over my documents reading what was actually written , not what was intended. If they could find any ambiguity in meaning caused by a wrong word or a an incorrect use of a comma this could be a reason for a "Variation to the Contract" and an "extra" ie cost my client more.
On other contracts the positions would be reversed with me searching for "extras".
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Post by westender on Jun 4, 2012 23:56:59 GMT -1
I agree with Westie but not totally. I drew up contracts and specifications for complex building projects where every word had to be the correct word and punctuation had to be spot on. Equally good, I hoped not better, people were poring over my documents reading what was actually written , not what was intended. If they could find any ambiguity in meaning caused by a wrong word or a an incorrect use of a comma this could be a reason for a "Variation to the Contract" and an "extra" ie cost my client more. On other contracts the positions would be reversed with me searching for "extras". Well, that's contract work... 'twas ever thus, and it's now about the only place left where anyone is giving a bugger about language and the precision thereof, because any mistakes or slovenliness or ambiguity mean money. Nobody outside of the contracts and the law gives a bugger any more. It's driving me potty. 60 flippin years.... the Queen's English is dying a death, and the poorest and most desperate are being turned into slaves: being bussed into London for the "celebrations" and forced to work for nothing in the pishing rain. With nowhere to sleep. In the 21st century. Expect a complete news blackout about this. "Britons never never ne-ver shall be sl"...er. Ah. |
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Post by ozneil on Jun 5, 2012 3:42:21 GMT -1
further to the above:- The NSW Department of Housing employed us to check their Contracts and Specs before Tender to try and reduce claims. Their boss Tech man was shit hot and a rabid socialist, that was the only reason he worked for DoH doing his bit for the community. Under his leadership the Doh efficiency shot ahead. Another NSW Dept kept on trying to do down the DoH out of jealousy The other department insisted on doing the documentation for a big project to show DoH how it should be done. Ted the boss man of DoH asked us to do a extra special check on the Documents. I cant remember how many pages the corrections ran too prob about 20 -30. First of all Keng did the check then I went through it again (twice the work twice the fee but Ted Okd' it). Its a tedious job so Keng knowing I would be checking it slipped in a couple comments like this Spec Should have read " PVC Pipes shall not to be susceptible to ultra violet damage" actually read " PVC Pipes shall not to be susceptible to ultra violent damage" Keng wrote " Is excessive vandalism expected on this project" I effing missed it!!!! We had a big meeting with the other deptmant and DoH going through their errors. They were getting angrier and angrier by the minute but couldnt say anything . Then I saw it!!!! Jesus  "Is excessive vandalism expected on this project" We were in trouble!!! . Guy got to it and I had to explain that it was a comment for me to draw my attention to it . The guy was getting more pissed by the moment then his boss, a lovely Indian guy named Veejay started laughing and laughing . He just couldnt stop. Thank God for that we were off the hook. |
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Post by westender on Jun 5, 2012 9:27:21 GMT -1
Both were still perfectly good English tho mate....
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Post by notanimby on Jun 5, 2012 10:07:30 GMT -1
Both were still perfectly good English tho mate.... er naw ultra-violet should have a hyphen and P.V.C. should have full-stops after each letter as it is an abbreviation |
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Post by westender on Jun 5, 2012 10:52:29 GMT -1
Both were still perfectly good English tho mate.... er naw ultra-violet should have a hyphen and P.V.C. should have full-stops after each letter as it is an abbreviation Not necessarily. In modern usage there are no hard and fast rules for either hyphenation or full stops in abbreviations. A hyphen is sometimes used after a prefix if the main word has only one syllable; for example, infra-red. By comparison, ultraviolet doesn't need a hyphen (according to most dictionaries) because the main word is not one syllable. In the days of typewriters, the British civil service frowned on excessive amounts of full stops - there were so many abbreviations that the ribbons took a helluva beating if the full stops were used in every instance. |
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Post by westender on Jun 5, 2012 14:27:04 GMT -1
ps: ozneil: " shall not to be"...?  (I am very fond of the above emoticon)  |
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Post by notanimby on Jun 5, 2012 15:03:55 GMT -1
er naw ultra-violet should have a hyphen and P.V.C. should have full-stops after each letter as it is an abbreviation Not necessarily. In modern usage there are no hard and fast rules for either hyphenation or full stops in abbreviations. A hyphen is sometimes used after a prefix if the main word has only one syllable; for example, infra-red. By comparison, ultraviolet doesn't need a hyphen (according to most dictionaries) because the main word is not one syllable. In the days of typewriters, the British civil service frowned on excessive amounts of full stops - there were so many abbreviations that the ribbons took a helluva beating if the full stops were used in every instance. See the bit in bold - that's yer answer to the OP "in modern usage" can cover a multitude of sins You'll find in technical books that the hyphen is used in ultra-violet - even at O Grade Physics level ( as used to be) using a hyphen before words of more than one syllable is perfectly acceptable for example: pre-history, pre-roman, anti-matter, pre-cancerous, pre-diabetic |
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Post by westender on Jun 5, 2012 16:40:27 GMT -1
See the bit in bold - that's yer answer to the OP "in modern usage" can cover a multitude of sins Natural evolution of language - for credible reasons - is not a sin. Language evolves; its rules - for hyphenation, abbreviations, lots of things - evolve. Of course technical language's customs & practices may sometimes differ from mainstream, which evolves much faster. How many years ago are O grades? Prehistory is certainly no longer hyphenated. I don't think antimatter is either. And that 'roman' should be capitalised... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2012 17:19:30 GMT -1
I've mentioned before some of the missives, purporting to be letters, that arrived chez R from the wean's former school. Chock-full of complete howlers The Heidie was a woman my age, who probably had solid skills in English, but of course dictated to a secretary less fortunate in her education. I do think some of the decline has been due not solely to teaching standards but also children not being such avid readers of books as we were. Although JK Rowling made a huge contribution to turning that around. BUT I also think the failure to teach even elementary Latin at Secondary has a part to play too. My wean missed out on that, and although she's always been a 'reader', she's disadvantaged I think in that she'd readily google a word she didn't understand ( or ask her auld ma) rather than use Latin to take an informed guess. Oddly enough, she and I were in Waterstones today and she commented how few young people were in the shop. Though, to be honest, with the average paperback at £9.99 now, I can understand why.  |
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Post by notanimby on Jun 5, 2012 18:10:41 GMT -1
See the bit in bold - that's yer answer to the OP "in modern usage" can cover a multitude of sins Natural evolution of language - for credible reasons - is not a sin. Language evolves; its rules - for hyphenation, abbreviations, lots of things - evolve. Of course technical language's customs & practices may sometimes differ from mainstream, which evolves much faster. How many years ago are O grades? Prehistory is certainly no longer hyphenated. I don't think antimatter is either. And that 'roman' should be capitalised... See, you're answering yer ain question again - language evolves, rules of language evolve too |
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Post by westender on Jun 5, 2012 19:12:13 GMT -1
See, you're answering yer ain question again ?? What question? |
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Post by notanimby on Jun 6, 2012 17:59:16 GMT -1
See, you're answering yer ain question again ?? What question? well.......... aboot modern life being rubbish, aboot modernisation of language - you usually hate it but noo yer defending it |
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Post by celyn on Jun 7, 2012 17:47:16 GMT -1
... I cant remember how many pages the corrections ran too... ;D Big lulz. Good one! ... ... We had a big meeting with the other deptmant .... Eye do knot no what a "deptmant" is. Skitt and Gaudere strike again. ;D I'm not sure if I have previously mentioned, and I apologise if I have, the one about a friend who went off to do a final talk-and-finalise-deal in Hong Kong to do some fibre optic comunnications-y computery stuff for their Mass Transport Railway thingwie. All should be well, all manner of things well, have got all things ready, and all is fine. Except. <Ominous music, da da da dum> "Oh SHIT, what bloody idiot clerical/secretary/general purpose numtpy back in England decided to refer in BIG letters to a " PUBIC" transport system? Eek eek and thrice eek, and no doubt some other words too. ;D Or two. |
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