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Post by bormes on Mar 18, 2013 7:36:27 GMT -1
Tend to agree with OZ, THAT IS the way things are. I would NEVER want a socialist nor a right wing government of either type. Unfortunately in our advesorial type of political system it stops sensible outcomes because of the way our crop of dunderheads do their voting. So much is done for political ideology and NOT for the good of ordinary people. If we could change the advesorial system it might make a wee difference?
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Post by notanimby on Mar 18, 2013 16:20:25 GMT -1
Sorry was under the impression we were talking Government spending to prop up unsustainable ideals and having to borrow heaps to do so. They, the Governments, of course actively encouraged the people to spend money they didnt have to try and fool them that everything was going wonderfully. Just look at the PIG countries and now Cyprus to see the consequences of their action. I just hope UK economy is strong enough to weather the reality without too much pain. It was never possible to sustain that rate of expenditure and now reality is starting to bite. Your standard of living will drop. It was artificially high If the governments hadnt propped up the banks you would all be in strife. A simple example if a business, including banks, gets into strife it immediately calls in its debts. Check your mortgage documents and business loans documents sometime. If banks start calling in debts the economy collapses so of course governments have to support them. Though I havent been to UK for Yonks I still have friends there and still follow events there through them and the media Iceland took a different route. They let the banks fail, jailed the bankers, and various politicians, guaranteed their citizens deposits and told their international creditors to go and take a flyin fuck to themselves. Now their economy is growing far faster than anyone else, unemployment is falling and they're back on track again. Other Scandinavian countries, with socialist principles, also managed to survive pretty unscathed too. Personally I would have went down the Icelandic route.............
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Post by notanimby on Mar 18, 2013 16:22:41 GMT -1
PS one shouldn't view socialism as being akin to the USSR or any other such state. They were as far removed from socialism as mars from uranus.
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Post by bormes on Mar 18, 2013 20:00:43 GMT -1
I agree nota but in context of what the scum party call themselves is what I mean when I describe socialists in the UK, not for example the SWP who are more honest than the scum party.
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Post by ozneil on Mar 18, 2013 20:06:14 GMT -1
I always thought the "I" in PIGS was Ireland.
I have had a high regard for the Icelanders ever since the "Cod Wars"
Norway had the sense not to join EU and my nephew married an absolutely gorgeous lady from Bergen. Oil keeps them solvent.
I know nothing about Sweden except it is very expensive and I believe the people are very tightly regulated.
How is Ireland doing? the papers seldom carry any good news.
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Post by notanimby on Mar 18, 2013 20:26:56 GMT -1
I agree nota but in context of what the scum party call themselves is what I mean when I describe socialists in the UK, not for example the SWP who are more honest than the scum party. Indeed, just because they label themselves something, doesn't mean that its true, or even on a nodding acquaintance with the truth.
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Post by notanimby on Mar 18, 2013 20:32:51 GMT -1
I always thought the "I" in PIGS was Ireland. I have had a high regard for the Icelanders ever since the "Cod Wars" Norway had the sense not to join EU and my nephew married an absolutely gorgeous lady from Bergen. Oil keeps them solvent. I know nothing about Sweden except it is very expensive and I believe the people are very tightly regulated. How is Ireland doing? the papers seldom carry any good news. Norway might not be in the EU but they have to pay into it as if they were, so they pay in but have no say in what it does. Sweden may be expensive, the Scandinavian countries all are, but they have the salaries to match. Their standard of living is very high. Ireland whilst still a bit fekked, their economy is growing fast again too, much faster than the UK Ireland's corporation tax is about half of what it is in the UK, this is helping to attract big companies in too Ireland is far from sorted, but they are on the right track for recovery, unlike the UK which, with the help of the Tory / LIE-DUMB coalition is doing a grand job of going down the shitter
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2013 22:04:30 GMT -1
I don't believe that any political party truly wants to secure a 'utopia' for the citizens they represent. I think they are quite happy to be remonstrating about what they would do in power, what those in power should do and having the citizens in the middle and at the bottom of the pile believing they need them. They want to make us afraid and tell us who to blame and I believe many more people are actually a lot more gullible than we give them credit for. We should start a new political party and stand for elections....there's plenty in here equipped to do so.
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Post by ozneil on Mar 18, 2013 23:21:27 GMT -1
Sweden may be expensive, the Scandinavian countries all are, but they have the salaries to match. Their standard of living is very high. Indeed they have its nearly as high as ours
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Post by ozneil on Mar 19, 2013 5:39:36 GMT -1
I don't believe that any political party truly wants to secure a 'utopia' for the citizens they represent. I think they are quite happy to be remonstrating about what they would do in power, what those in power should do and having the citizens in the middle and at the bottom of the pile believing they need them. They want to make us afraid and tell us who to blame and I believe many more people are actually a lot more gullible than we give them credit for. We should start a new political party and stand for elections....there's plenty in here equipped to do so. Most politicians are, unfortunately, in it for what they can get. A few very few are genuinely in it to help people. This mob could not form a political party coz:- A) Too many brains B) Too diverse opinions C) Too autocratic D) not Scottish residents E) too far to travel
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 20:21:44 GMT -1
I always thought the "I" in PIGS was Ireland. I have had a high regard for the Icelanders ever since the "Cod Wars" Norway had the sense not to join EU and my nephew married an absolutely gorgeous lady from Bergen. Oil keeps them solvent. I know nothing about Sweden except it is very expensive and I believe the people are very tightly regulated. How is Ireland doing? the papers seldom carry any good news. Norway might not be in the EU but they have to pay into it as if they were, so they pay in but have no say in what it does. Sweden may be expensive, the Scandinavian countries all are, but they have the salaries to match. Their standard of living is very high. Ireland whilst still a bit fekked, their economy is growing fast again too, much faster than the UK Ireland's corporation tax is about half of what it is in the UK, this is helping to attract big companies in too Ireland is far from sorted, but they are on the right track for recovery, unlike the UK which, with the help of the Tory / LIE-DUMB coalition is doing a grand job of going down the shitter Agreed, Nota. Ireland had one hellish shit time this past few years but as you say, is WELL on track for recovery. Unlike the UKE. As for Scandinavia, yes their taxes are relatively higher than UKE's. But in exchange for that, they have a society that takes care of their welfare, from pensions to childcare and decent breaks on how employees are treated via life-work balance. It's about a sense of a country's well-being ;D. About equitable societies, compared to ours, which is riven with the most hideous inequalities. And said it before, say it again, I applaud the principle that the CEO of any company can only be paid 10 times the wage of the worst-paid employee. We can, and should, learn from Scandinavia, Ireland and Iceland. All high in the OECD table of wealth and wellbeing, just as we would be if we removed the shackles of Westmonster.
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Post by ozneil on Mar 19, 2013 21:35:24 GMT -1
I see from the OECD tables Sweden is No 4. with both Norway and US ahead of it and Denmark close behind it.
Reminded immediately of lies, damned lies & statistics
To me Sweden is a too highly regulated country with too much , for me at least, a big brother attitude which I would find hard to take. I prefer freedom to make my own mistakes and live life the way I want
Why restrict a CEOs earnings Rolo? Surely a CEOs earnings should bear relation to what he is worth to the company? Not to some figure arrived at by politicians who generally rely on a map to find their own arse and have no experience of running a business
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 22:08:51 GMT -1
I referred to the OECD figures for good reason, Oz. On current projections, Scotland would be at no 7, while the UKE would be at 16. Take from that what you will Re 'restricting' earnings of CEOs, Oz: nobody's suggesting restrictions, merely a more equitable model of the sharing out of the profits. Every company, large or small, shirley relies on each and every employee doing their bit. Whether that's bringing in contracts, delivering services or emptying the office bins/cleaning toilets, if one element fails, that's a fail. Don't we all rely on each other's skills, talents and sheer bloody hard work, whatever our role? OH...I think so. There's two ways ahead for Scotland, in my view. Hideous, exploitative capitalism or a society where effort and the dignity of labour is rewarded. Guess where my vote's going?
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Post by ozneil on Mar 19, 2013 23:01:17 GMT -1
I referred to the OECD figures for good reason, Oz. On current projections, Scotland would be at no 7, while the UKE would be at 16. Take from that what you will \\ Obviously looking at different tables on the one Im looking at No7 is Switzerland. What was I saying about lies & damned lies ;D We do and also the input from the shareholders to provide capital. Bear in mind the biggest shareholders are the pension funds. Why would they invest in a company that pays say 2% when they can invest in a bank that pays 3% and guaranteed. Life can get very complicated coz without an input of funds a company goes bust and if a CEO can balance all these successfully he is worth his money Why not a third way? That practiced by Canada, New Zealand and Australia which rely on capitalism and a good well paid willing work force. Incidentlythe above countries are all in top 10 of the 10 Countries with The Highest Quality Of Life
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2013 1:31:11 GMT -1
I referred to the OECD figures for good reason, Oz. On current projections, Scotland would be at no 7, while the UKE would be at 16. Take from that what you will \\ Obviously looking at different tables on the one Im looking at No7 is Switzerland. What was I saying about lies & damned lies ;D We do and also the input from the shareholders to provide capital. Bear in mind the biggest shareholders are the pension funds. Why would they invest in a company that pays say 2% when they can invest in a bank that pays 3% and guaranteed. Life can get very complicated coz without an input of funds a company goes bust and if a CEO can balance all these successfully he is worth his money Why not a third way? That practiced by Canada, New Zealand and Australia which rely on capitalism and a good well paid willing work force. Incidentlythe above countries are all in top 10 of the 10 Countries with The Highest Quality Of Life As ever Australia's a year or two behind. Must be the time difference Check out the OECD figures for this year Not that being 7th or 8th is substantially different, Oz ;D Scotland is still WAY WAY higher up the league than the UK. Care to dispute that? As for your example of 2% versus 3% returns, there IS such a thing as making a moral investment. Not EVERYBODY is just about maximising returns on their capital at any cost. Many many people here prefer to invest in companies that put basic ethics before rampant, exploitative capitalism. Possibly a difficult concept for some to wrap their heads around? AND another thing------It's ridiculous to compare Scotland with Canada, New Zealand, and Australia. The latter three are underpopulated countries, vast swathes of nothingness and almost full employment in their few towns and cities. All reliant on immigrants. I love the way you refer to a good, well paid, willing workforce, as if the Scots are lazy bastards, dependent on benefits, THAT old chestnut? Aye very good. How very Daily Fail. Can I just remind you, Scotland's tax to Westminster is 9.8% from 8.4% of the UKE population. An inconvenient fact for some.
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