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Post by notanimby on Aug 10, 2014 18:34:55 GMT -1
Didn't it used to be that men suffering shellshock in WW1 were shot as cowards by their own side? I also remember family talk post-WW2, from when I was maybe 10 or so: where conscientious objectors (COs) were utterly despised and regarded as cowards. Maybe some were? I don't know. Just seems to me they were maybe quite smart in their refusal to take part in someone else's war? ps I meant to ask, Nota, did that poor man's state of mind colour your own views as you grew up? Probably in some way, in saying that I've always had a keen interest in WW2 especially home front and the more unusual side of it too It did colour my view on the fact that governments cheerfully send folk off to war but when they return injured they're cheerfully forgotten about , that's something the UK government are grand masters at, treating injured service folks like shite, same in WW1 as it is now. Wonder if the raving Brit-Nast will be "celebrating" the seedier side of WW1, the shot at dawn guys, the tanks and soldiers on the streets of Glasgow, the sheer horror that the ordinary working class wherein sheer revolt over rip off rents and piss poor wages, somehow I doubt that will get marked in Cameron's " celebrations"
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Post by bormes on Aug 10, 2014 20:17:15 GMT -1
Unfortunately correct nota, in fact I do not think any officer was ever shot at dawn for "Cowardice" Even now the MOD do not accept PTS, despite the US accepting it from the beginning.
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Post by ozneil on Aug 10, 2014 21:11:42 GMT -1
Long reply coming up.
1 After the Boer war the death penalty was forbidden in AIF though Haig wanted us to re-instate it "Pour l'encouragement etc" The request was refused. Only person who could sanction it was the Governor General... He was never asked. We also looked after or shell shocked guys as well as other servicemen
2 Conchies my Scottish Boss, Bill, (ex-Para, D-day, crossing of Rhine etc) despised Conchies he said they were rank cowards. There was a competing firm in Glasgow whose boss was an ex-conchie Bill would not talk to him and obviously despised him. I mentioned to Bill thta it may take guts to be a conchie. Bill said that the conchie would be alive at the end of the war while he most probably wouldnt be and he thought fear outweighed anything else. His opinion I dont know but I certainly respect it. In WW1 an Aussie digger wrote that when he was wounded as soon as he was moved back to a hospital in France he was cared for by lady nurses, Australian, British & French Girls. On being moved to UK he was unloaded from the ship by Conchies. He despised them when he thought of the nurses up near the front in France. Having said that your 14th Army in Burma had several US Quaker Ambulance u n i t s operating with them. Conchies to a man who were up very very close to the fighting rescuing wounded under heavy fire. Very Brave men . Even chaplains carried arms there, they didnt.. US forces wouldnt let them serve with them for some reason but Slim welcomed them with open arms though they were never officially part of the army being comnpletely supported by their churches in the US. NB the 14th Army was mostly Indian troops.
3. WW2 Dockers and shipyard workers. Before Germany invaded Russia the Communist led unions here and in UK were instructed by Moscow to go slow and delay the shipment of arms to the troops, many did deliberately hinder the war effort. Of Course when Germany invaded Russia this changed overnight.
I dont know how UK handled it but the troops here took matters into their own hands and went in mobs to meet the Wharfies at their pub and when knocking off and gently persuaded them it was a bad idea. The police always seemed slow to respond the these rather animated discussions. The go slows stopped.
As an adjunct the Postal Union (decidedly left wing) decided to stop sending personal mail and parcels to the diggers in Vietnam. This revived the WW2 discussions this time called "Punch a Postie Day" the bans were lifted quick smart.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 21:17:43 GMT -1
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Post by ozneil on Aug 10, 2014 21:39:58 GMT -1
A bit more on discipline in Brit Army in WW1 from a Dutch web site
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Post by bormes on Aug 10, 2014 21:40:21 GMT -1
It was impossible to have benefits for this injury, recently you can, although it is very, very strict on paying out. I would think their is not a large number of Forces personal with mental disorders than the rest of the population, however the ones who have it are certainly more complex and possibly harder to cure. There are a number of street people who are ex Forces, though I suggest not all with this, some are drug or alcohol abusers. However it took a lot of pressure from MP's and media to force the MOD to finally reluctantly partially accept it as a genuine illness. Some still deny it. As nota SAID, THEY HAVE PREVIOUS FOR NEGLECTING THE RETURNING WARRIORS .
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Post by notanimby on Aug 10, 2014 21:46:15 GMT -1
Long reply coming up. 1 After the Boer war the death penalty was forbidden in AIF & NZ forces though Haig wanted us to re-instate it "Pour l'encouragement etc" The request was refused. Only person who could sanction it was the Governor General... He was never asked. We also looked after or shell shocked guys as well as other servicemen 2 Conchies my Scottish Boss, Bill, (ex-Para, D-day, crossing of Rhine etc) despised Conchies he said they were rank cowards. There was a competing firm in Glasgow whose boss was an ex-conchie Bill would not talk to him and obviously despised him. I mentioned to Bill thta it may take guts to be a conchie. Bill said that the conchie would be alive at the end of the war while he most probably wouldnt be and he thought fear outweighed anything else. His opinion I dont know but I certainly respect it. In WW1 an Aussie digger wrote that when he was wounded as soon as he was moved back to a hospital in France he was cared for by lady nurses, Australian, British & French Girls. On being moved to UK he was unloaded from the ship by Conchies. He despised them when he thought of the nurses up near the front in France. Having said that your 14th Army in Burma had several US Quaker Ambulance u n i t s operating with them. Conchies to a man who were up very very close to the fighting rescuing wounded under heavy fire. Very Brave men . Even chaplains carried arms there, they didnt.. US forces wouldnt let them serve with them for some reason but Slim welcomed them with open arms though they were never officially part of the army being comnpletely supported by their churches in the US. 3. WW2 Dockers and shipyard workers. Before Germany invaded Russia the Communist led unions here and in UK were instructed by Moscow to go slow and delay the shipment of arms to the troops, many did deliberately hinder the war effort. Of Course when Germany invaded Russia this changed overnight. I dont know how UK handled it but the troops here took matters into their own hands and went in mobs to meet the Wharfies at their pub and when knocking off and gently persuaded them it was a bad idea. The police always seemed slow to respond the these rather animated discussions. The go slows stopped. As an adjunct the Postal Unit (decidedly left wing) decided to stop sending personal mail and parcels to the diggers in Vietnam. This revived the WW2 discussions this time called "Punch a Postie Day" the bans were lifted quick smart. Moscow controlled unions and workers, those oh so nasty commies, perhaps they were under the bed doing the controlling, laughable nonsense. What isn't nonsense though is how the people of Clydeside were treated in WW1, increasing rents for hovels and shrinking wages led to rent strikes and labour strikes, the leader of the rent strikes, Mary Barbour was just an ordinary woman. Whilst huge numbers were off getting butchered, the bosses and the government were shafting those on the home front, is it any wonder the people were rebelling. So much so, that the government put troops, tanks and armoured cars on the streets, they weren't manned by local troops though, as they were seen as untrustworthy because the couldn't be relied upon to fire on women and children. Aye, those commies, imagine that, what? Wanting folks not to be tated like shite. John MacLean, Scotland's greatest political figure was imprisoned for sedition, he had the temerity to want better conditions for folk, he suffered in prison due to force feeding but on his release thousands marched for him to welcome him back. Like many families, macLean was a hero in ours too, a great man of he people and rightly revered to this day.
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Post by notanimby on Aug 10, 2014 21:50:49 GMT -1
It was impossible to have benefits for this injury, recently you can, although it is very, very strict on paying out. I would think their is not a large number of Forces personal with mental disorders than the rest of the population, however the ones who have it are certainly more complex and possibly harder to cure. There are a number of street people who are ex Forces, though I suggest not all with this, some are drug or alcohol abusers. However it took a lot of pressure from MP's and media to force the MOD to finally reluctantly partially accept it as a genuine illness. Some still deny it. As nota SAID, THEY HAVE PREVIOUS FOR NEGLECTING THE RETURNING WARRIORS . Ex-service folks having to rely on charities for help and support is a disgrace, but alas with the government playing the "our boys" card so that the gullible citizens donate more and more to the likes of erskine and combat stress, then it absolves them of doing anything apart from turning up to look concerned and get their photie in the media
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Post by ozneil on Aug 10, 2014 21:56:35 GMT -1
I said WW2 not 1 and regretfully it isnt nonsense about the "go-slows" and strikes.
From Union History
Other reports put it more strongly.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 22:49:43 GMT -1
A bit more on discipline in Brit Army in WW1 from a Dutch web site Why does that not surprise me, Oz.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 23:06:04 GMT -1
The thing is this. The ordinary working person, of whatever class, is seen as cannon fodder, a means to an end towards the personal aims of the psychopaths who're prepared to do just about anything to cling on to power.
Whether that be literal cannon-fodder or just working hard for a living, paying your tax dues, and doing the right thing, their ilk doesn't give a flying feck.
It's in the very nature of psychopathic personalities to believe, totally and utterly, in their own capabilities, despite evidence to the contrary.
We '*pretend* we too have power by voting in alternative regimes every few years, and sending a message to one lot that we only ever reinforce in another lot.
I want to live in a Scotland that holds its politicians to account. A country where politicians are NOT removed by class, wealth and education beyond the reach of the rest of us, and quit trying to preach from on high.
Some people do seem to feel the need for someone in *authority* to tell them what to do. But in reality, most ordinary sentient people ALREADY KNOW what best to do.
Take the fucking biased media, who only ever support the rich and powerful, out of the question--- and I think you'll find that peoples' judgement is actually pretty damned sound.
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Post by ozneil on Aug 10, 2014 23:18:41 GMT -1
WITHOUT COMMENT ONLY A FEELING OF GREAT SORROW
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Post by ozneil on Aug 10, 2014 23:22:19 GMT -1
The thing is this. The ordinary working person, of whatever class, is seen as cannon fodder, a means to an end towards the personal aims of the psychopaths who're prepared to do just about anything to cling on to power. Whether that be literal cannon-fodder or just working hard for a living, paying your tax dues, and doing the right thing, their ilk doesn't give a flying feck. It's in the very nature of psychopathic personalities to believe, totally and utterly, in their own capabilities, despite evidence to the contrary. We '*pretend* we too have power by voting in alternative regimes every few years, and sending a message to one lot that we only ever reinforce in another lot. I want to live in a Scotland that holds its politicians to account. A country where politicians are NOT removed by class, wealth and education beyond the reach of the rest of us, and quit trying to preach from on high. Some people do seem to feel the need for someone in *authority* to tell them what to do. But in reality, most ordinary sentient people ALREADY KNOW what best to do. Take the fucking biased media, who only ever support the rich and powerful, out of the question--- and I think you'll find that peoples' judgement is actually pretty damned sound. Best emigrate we need people like you. Not to be taken too seriously, High horse not required
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 23:23:56 GMT -1
Where you get that quote from, Oz?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 23:28:41 GMT -1
The thing is this. The ordinary working person, of whatever class, is seen as cannon fodder, a means to an end towards the personal aims of the psychopaths who're prepared to do just about anything to cling on to power. Whether that be literal cannon-fodder or just working hard for a living, paying your tax dues, and doing the right thing, their ilk doesn't give a flying feck. It's in the very nature of psychopathic personalities to believe, totally and utterly, in their own capabilities, despite evidence to the contrary. We '*pretend* we too have power by voting in alternative regimes every few years, and sending a message to one lot that we only ever reinforce in another lot. I want to live in a Scotland that holds its politicians to account. A country where politicians are NOT removed by class, wealth and education beyond the reach of the rest of us, and quit trying to preach from on high. Some people do seem to feel the need for someone in *authority* to tell them what to do. But in reality, most ordinary sentient people ALREADY KNOW what best to do. Take the fucking biased media, who only ever support the rich and powerful, out of the question--- and I think you'll find that peoples' judgement is actually pretty damned sound. Best emigrate we need people like you. Not to be taken too seriously, High horse not required Come September 19th, we'll see what's what.
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