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Post by notanimby on Nov 11, 2011 9:46:36 GMT -1
As I mentioned earlier, a friend of mine chucked himself af ra erskine bridge in august - no higher barrier or such would have stopped him.
A less likely character to do that, you could probably ever met, whatever his ills were, he never shared them with anyone whatsoever.
Before doing it, he had all his affairs sorted out, nothing was left to chance - must have been the lawyer in him.
The downside is what was left behind, a family and friends struggling to understand the reason(s) behind this, when nothing is there to be seen.
His daughters and grand-weans (wae wan on the way at the time) are at a complete loss, I suppose seeing a reason would help them understand.
His memorial service was attended by @ 700 people - he touched so many - all at a loss to understand
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Post by peony on Nov 11, 2011 13:44:18 GMT -1
Rolo, that song also touched me. I wondered if it would be that one when I clicked on the link.
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Post by yonzabam on Nov 11, 2011 13:55:42 GMT -1
Major depression is the main reason why people commit suicide. Things may be going wrong in their lives and they'll blame these 'external' problems to make their actions seem rational, but it's an internal problem in the brain. Um. Are you saying that suicide is irrational? I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. Suicide can be the result of hyper rationality; hyper logic. I agree. However, my understanding is that our understanding of what depression is and how antidepressants work is not that clear cut... that serotonin's role is not that simple. This guy's blog is quite interesting (well, I found it so as a layperson): "...the idea that depression is caused primarily by a serotonin “imbalance” is a description of the processes underlying the disorder so simplified it renders itself inaccurate.... neuroscientificallychallenged.blogspot.com/2008/04/serotonin-hypothesis-and-neurogenesis.html Maybe.... it might do away with the nonsense of medical professionals prescribing gabbing to strangers (sorry, "counselling") as a cure for chemical imbalances casing havoc in the brain. I mean, wtf is that all about! I definitely think there's more of it about now than there's ever been, as well. What's fucking up our heads? No, I'm not saying that suicide is irrational. I'm saying that the depressed person doesn't understand what's making them feel the way they do, and may attempt to rationalise their feelings as being caused by external events, when it's actually a problem with neurotransmitters. I read the blog and am not all that impressed. He's just saying what anyone familiar with brain biochemistry knows already - it's complicated. There are hunners of papers on PubMed on the aspects he brings up. However, all the different classes of antidepressant drugs - tricyclics, MAO inhibitors and SSRIs all act by increasing the availability of serotonin. That, of course, doesn't mean there aren't alternative avenues that might be more fruitful to research. For example, for some unknown reason, all the antidepressants take weeks to work, and their effects are hit and miss, ranging from lifesaving benefit to no benefit, depending on the individual. There is a street drug by the name of 'ketamine', which alleviates depression almost instantly, by comparison. It acts on a completely different receptor. No idea why it doesn't have therapeutic applications, but there's a resistance on the part of the authorities to legitimise street drugs for therapeutic purposes. Cannabis and multiple sclerosis come to mind. Addiction is obviously a worry, but I think there's a case for research into MDMA (ecstasy) as a therapeutic drug as all the evidence seems to suggest it's relatively safe in small doses. I didnae go into the subject in depth because it's not appropriate on a general forum like this, but neurotransmitter 'crosstalk' is a subject I've been delving into more and more these last few years. Environmental chemicals can bind to brain receptors, either as 'agonists' (activating) or 'antagonists' (deactivating). An example is caffeine, which acts as an antagonist at the adenosine A2a receptor. This crosstalks with the GABA(A) receptor, causing its suppression. The GABA(A) receptor is where the valium molecule binds to as an agonist, reducing anxiety. Large amount of caffeine cause 'jitteriness', because of GABA(A) receptor suppression. The GABA(A) receptor crosstalks with dopamine receptors. GABA(A) receptor suppression boosts dopamine transmission, resulting in caffeine making us feel alert. I could go on, but you'd lose the will to live. Both serotonin and dopamine each have five known receptor types, with different functions, depending on the neurons they activate. I've written a couple of blogs. The main one runs to 72 pages when printed, while a recent one on the subject of folic acid and other environmental GABA(A) receptor antagonists causing autism, ADHD, asthma and type 1 diabetes runs to 6 pages. This one can be seen at: nfkbdiseases.wordpress.com/There's a link to the main blog at the bottom.
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Post by westender on Nov 12, 2011 0:16:38 GMT -1
;D yonza: 1. I like your style. 2. I like your cheek. 3. I wish I had the time to give you a response that would be courteous enough, given how much effort you've put into your post. There is much to speak of, on this topic... the whole world is going potty.
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Post by westender on Nov 12, 2011 0:28:25 GMT -1
No, I'm not saying that suicide is irrational. I'm saying that the depressed person doesn't understand what's making them feel the way they do, and may attempt to rationalise their feelings as being caused by external events, when it's actually a problem with neurotransmitters. Ho, my my my my my. Ok, I'm not disagreeing with you, but...do you seriously think that an intelligent person who happens to be depressed & suicidal has come to where they are because they don't understand why they're thinkin the way they are...? A suicidal person knows very well how they are thinking. They are thinking hyper logically. Any (usually banal) advice proffered to such a mind simply doesn't understand the hyper logic, and therefore simply cannot be of any help.
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Post by peony on Nov 12, 2011 13:32:42 GMT -1
Actually when I was suicidal, I thought I was facing obstacles that could not be overcome. I was not being logical and I was wrong.
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Post by minime on Nov 13, 2011 11:54:28 GMT -1
A few thoughts.
I don't think anyone actually knows exactly what a suicidal person is thinking and feeling at the time they are at thir lowest. Those who have felt suicidal may be able to describe what they were experiencing at the time which may have something in common with someone else's experience.
As for the changes at the Erskine Bridge, if the modifications mean that one person's life is saved and that person then starts to recover and move away from their utter despair then isn't it worthwhile?
I have worked with people who have felt so low and so overwhelmed and so desperate to stop feeling the way they do that at that point the only option was to end their life. There are always alternatives.
BTW 'commit' suicide goes back to the time when suicide was a crime.
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Post by westender on Nov 13, 2011 12:06:38 GMT -1
As for the changes at the Erskine Bridge, if the modifications mean that one person's life is saved and that person then starts to recover and move away from their utter despair then isn't it worthwhile? Why is it that the dogooders, who can't possibly understand, are so bloody hell bent on prolonging the suicidal person's agonies? It's nobody else's bloody business, quite frankly. The 'alternatives', quite obviously, are not alternatives as far as a suicidal person is concerned.
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Post by westender on Nov 13, 2011 12:08:24 GMT -1
Rolo, that song also touched me. I wondered if it would be that one when I clicked on the link. Oh gawd... can't bloody stand 'em; trite nonsesne and him and his whiny voice
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Post by westender on Nov 13, 2011 12:10:08 GMT -1
As I mentioned earlier, a friend of mine chucked himself af ra erskine bridge in august - no higher barrier or such would have stopped him. A less likely character to do that, you could probably ever met, whatever his ills were, he never shared them with anyone whatsoever. Before doing it, he had all his affairs sorted out, nothing was left to chance - must have been the lawyer in him. The downside is what was left behind, a family and friends struggling to understand the reason(s) behind this, when nothing is there to be seen. His daughters and grand-weans (wae wan on the way at the time) are at a complete loss, I suppose seeing a reason would help them understand. His memorial service was attended by @ 700 people - he touched so many - all at a loss to understand (Not quite as the poet put it) but, the greatest tragedy of human existence is the perpetual virginity of the soul.
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Post by Sir Henry Rawlinson on Nov 13, 2011 12:51:31 GMT -1
I'm not disagreeing with you, but...do you seriously think that an intelligent person who happens to be depressed & suicidal has come to where they are because they don't understand why they're thinkin the way they are...? A suicidal person knows very well how they are thinking. They are thinking hyper logically. Any (usually banal) advice proffered to such a mind simply doesn't understand the hyper logic, and therefore simply cannot be of any help. Westie, you are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Dangerously full of it.
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Post by minime on Nov 13, 2011 16:21:43 GMT -1
As for the changes at the Erskine Bridge, if the modifications mean that one person's life is saved and that person then starts to recover and move away from their utter despair then isn't it worthwhile? Why is it that the dogooders, who can't possibly understand, are so bloody hell bent on prolonging the suicidal person's agonies? It's nobody else's bloody business, quite frankly. The 'alternatives', quite obviously, are not alternatives as far as a suicidal person is concerned. Perhaps at their very lowest point a suicidal person isn't going to that there are alternatives but there are always alternatives. No one else's business? Good grief! Them damn do gooders are so uncaring! A straight question. Do you understand what a suicidal person isexperiencing. And if 'yes' where does your insight come from?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2011 18:07:20 GMT -1
A few thoughts. As for the changes at the Erskine Bridge, if the modifications mean that one person's life is saved and that person then starts to recover and move away from their utter despair then isn't it worthwhile? I'm not questioning your well-meaning, Minime, but I find your argument on this particular question terribly simplistic. As has repeatedly been said here, the raising of a physical barrier will not stop anyone who wants to end their life. And I don't agree with you, Norm, in your critical view of Westie's statement. I completely get how people can feel so disassociated from the world and its (our?) current values and weigh up the pros and cons of staying alive. It seems to me Western societies celebrate the 'successful', the gregarious, the big personalities, to the point where we neglect to acknowledge the everyday people who 'succeed' every single day but don't have wealth and celebrity. Our media plays a huge role in making us ALL feel unworthy, never quite wealthy/successful/beautiful enough. We applaud all the wrong people IMHO. And in my view it's no wonder emotionally intelligent people opt out.
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Post by bormes on Nov 13, 2011 19:02:13 GMT -1
minime, I think your last question to Westender is out of order. I am no expert on this subject, however, I do think the tone of response is very honest from posters on this subject. Westy can stand up for herself and is very capable of, but I think you've gone a wee bit far, no offence meant. In fact, try to come along to roly's swally, if you don't wish to try a wee dram, tea and coffee is also available.
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Post by westender on Nov 15, 2011 13:19:57 GMT -1
Westie, you are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Dangerously full of it. From this I assume that you disagree with what I have said. What exactly is it in what I have said that you disagree with? Care to explain, rather than merely insult? (which is a very much less than helpful attitude on this particular subject)
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