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Post by westender on Nov 15, 2011 13:27:29 GMT -1
Perhaps at their very lowest point a suicidal person isn't going to that there are alternatives but there are always alternatives. For the dogooding handwringing (and as has been acknowledged, clueless) onlooker, yes there probably are alternatives. But not for the suicidal person. If there were, QED they would not be suicidal. So - devil's advocate - why should your thinking, and your demands that they live and prolong their agonies, take precedence over their thinking?? It is not. The point could be made that their interfering is at least as much (if not more) to do with their own sense of wellbeing than with those of the suicidal person's. They simply don't understand what's going on in that mind. And that, Ms Righteous Dogooder, is none of your damn business. |
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Post by Sir Henry Rawlinson on Nov 15, 2011 14:15:37 GMT -1
Westie, you are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Dangerously full of it. From this I assume that you disagree with what I have said. What exactly is it in what I have said that you disagree with? Care to explain, rather than merely insult? (which is a very much less than helpful attitude on this particular subject) These bits. My opinion in bold "I'm not disagreeing with you, but...do you seriously think that an intelligent person who happens to be depressed & suicidal has come to where they are because they don't understand why they're thinkin the way they are...? Being unable to fathom the cause of depression, feelings of despair,hopelessness, anhedonia and suicidal ideation are key points to the torture that is suicidal depression. The sufferer cannot rationalise that it is just the depression A suicidal person knows very well how they are thinking. They are thinking hyper logically. Any (usually banal) advice proffered to such a mind simply doesn't understand the hyper logic, and therefore simply cannot be of any help" Utter tosh. Hyper Logic based on a foundation of distorted thought is only going to apply the logic to the distorted experience. These people are lost to themselves. |
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Post by Sir Henry Rawlinson on Nov 15, 2011 14:16:33 GMT -1
Westie quote "But not for the suicidal person. If there were, QED they would not be suicidal.
"
see, you do get it after all.!
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Post by minime on Nov 15, 2011 17:03:14 GMT -1
Perhaps at their very lowest point a suicidal person isn't going to that there are alternatives but there are always alternatives. For the dogooding handwringing (and as has been acknowledged, clueless) onlooker, yes there probably are alternatives. But not for the suicidal person. If there were, QED they would not be suicidal. So - devil's advocate - why should your thinking, and your demands that they live and prolong their agonies, take precedence over their thinking?? It is not. The point could be made that their interfering is at least as much (if not more) to do with their own sense of wellbeing than with those of the suicidal person's. They simply don't understand what's going on in that mind. And that, Ms Righteous Dogooder, is none of your damn business. lol you're sooo funny. "And that, Ms Righteous Dogooder, is none of your damn business." This seems to be your default position when you can't answer a question.  Ok, there are people out there who have been suicidal and are ever so grateful that there was help from handwringing dogooders who effectively stopped them from making a decision which they can look back on and see as totally wrong but a reflection of their state at that particular time. I bet the odd relative was quite pleased too. It's not easysupporting a child who found their parent with a rope hanging round their neck and helping them make sense of it all. |
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Post by westender on Nov 15, 2011 17:24:03 GMT -1
lol you're sooo funny. "And that, Ms Righteous Dogooder, is none of your damn business." This seems to be your default position when you can't answer a question. Wtf? It's not a 'default position' - it's a straight answer to your impertinent question. I'm not here for a fucking point scoring exercise, but I would point out that it's clearly you who, in your sarcastic response, is avoiding the basic points put to you.  Sez you, but you would do, wouldn't you. Help? That's what you want to call it, of course. It's not. It's interference, and a determination on the dogooders' part to prolong the agony. Fine; bully for them. I have never denied or attempted to deny that there are folk out there who have been brought back from the brink. What I have an issue with is the motivations of those who are hell bent on getting involved in stuff that is none of their business. If it's a reflection of their actual state then QED it cannot be said to be 'totally' wrong - any more than their altered, 'saved' state is totally right. Self satisfaction. Smug, witless self satisfaction. If you think you'll ever be able to 'help' that kid 'make sense of it all', you're plainly delusional. There is no sense to be made: neither you, any other dogooders or the kid can ever know the mind that took itself out of the picture. |
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Post by westender on Nov 15, 2011 17:39:20 GMT -1
These bits. My opinion in bold Being unable to fathom the cause of depression, feelings of despair,hopelessness, anhedonia and suicidal ideation are key points to the torture that is suicidal depression. The sufferer cannot rationalise that it is just the depression ?? Where'd you get that? I disagree completely that the sufferer 'cannot rationalise that it is just the depression.' In the hyper logic of depression, anything other than how one is feeling is illogical; delusional, even if one is aware that the baseline is depression. The certain knowledge that it is depression is the real intellectual baseline; everything on top of that is just bullshit, lies and a waste of time. That's the whole point - to the sufferer, it is absolutely not 'distorted thought'. It is hyper logical thought. Hyper correct. Literally, supreme. Quite possibly, and that's why I am saying that their tribulations are nobody else's damn business. And the attempted guilt-inducing and other banalities of those dogooders who can't conceive of it, really are too much to bear, on top of every other bloody thing. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2011 18:38:06 GMT -1
Utter tosh. Hyper Logic based on a foundation of distorted thought is only going to apply the logic to the distorted experience. These people are lost to themselves. I'm not sure I agree, Norm. Who's theory is that, do you mind me asking? For the sake of discussion, who's to say suicidal people's thoughts are 'distorted'? That's almost like saying that 'happiness' and 'contentment' or 'purpose' even, are (or should be?) the default settings of humankind. Is that the case? I might offer that people are perfectly capable of making rational decisions whether they want to remain on this earth or not. In all honesty, I believe there are so many people who'd really prefer oblivion but continue to exist out of obligation to others; dependent children, spouses, extended family whatever, and possibly also because it's decreed by certain sections of our society that taking your life is wrong. And mental distress is considered a weakness, when if anything I'd argue the opposite is true. |
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Post by Sir Henry Rawlinson on Nov 15, 2011 20:09:11 GMT -1
Seriously, please delete me from this forum,. please.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2011 21:00:47 GMT -1
Seriously, please delete me from this forum,. please. Ach Norm, what's riled you so much? OK I don't think it's particularly helpful to deride those who try to make a difference but at the same time, people here are speaking honestly from their own point of view, which sometimes means challenging accepted mores. If in doing that I have offended you somehow, it was not the intention. If you violently disagree with anything I've said, I'm big and ugly enough to take it. |
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Post by westender on Nov 15, 2011 21:08:48 GMT -1
Seriously, please delete me from this forum,. please. Um, no. You know why this forum was set up. It was set up for discussion of whatever comes up among us, with neither fear nor favour. That seemed enough to bring you here and to contribute occasionally, and yours are valued contributions. If you wish to say something on this subject - and clearly the subject is of some interest to you, given the intemperateness of your responses - then feel free. The reasons for this forum's existence haven't suddenly changed, and they aren't going to. |
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Post by westender on Nov 15, 2011 21:16:10 GMT -1
Utter tosh. Hyper Logic based on a foundation of distorted thought is only going to apply the logic to the distorted experience. These people are lost to themselves. I'm not sure I agree, Norm. Who's theory is that, do you mind me asking? For the sake of discussion, who's to say suicidal people's thoughts are 'distorted'? That's almost like saying that 'happiness' and 'contentment' or 'purpose' even, are (or should be?) the default settings of humankind. Is that the case? That's what I'm saying too. Who is anyone to decree that depressives are the ones malfunctioning? - that 'depressed' is the wrong state and happy clappy is the right state? Indeed. Who is anyone to decree that we all must live, no matter how unendurable certain of us may find life? Quite - and that the dogooders' arsenal of interfering tactics includes attempting to heap guilt about those potentially left behind onto the already intolerable burdens of a suicidal person, is quite heinous IMO. Oh yeah. |
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Post by minime on Nov 16, 2011 7:16:13 GMT -1
lol you're sooo funny. "And that, Ms Righteous Dogooder, is none of your damn business." This seems to be your default position when you can't answer a question. Wtf? It's not a 'default position' - it's a straight answer to your impertinent question. I'm not here for a fucking point scoring exercise, but I would point out that it's clearly you who, in your sarcastic response, is avoiding the basic points put to you. Sez you, but you would do, wouldn't you. Help? That's what you want to call it, of course. It's not. It's interference, and a determination on the dogooders' part to prolong the agony. Fine; bully for them. I have never denied or attempted to deny that there are folk out there who have been brought back from the brink. What I have an issue with is the motivations of those who are hell bent on getting involved in stuff that is none of their business. If it's a reflection of their actual state then QED it cannot be said to be 'totally' wrong - any more than their altered, 'saved' state is totally right. Self satisfaction. Smug, witless self satisfaction. If you think you'll ever be able to 'help' that kid 'make sense of it all', you're plainly delusional. There is no sense to be made: neither you, any other dogooders or the kid can ever know the mind that took itself out of the picture. I think there are times when I have to say 'what's the point'? And I've reached it on here with you. |
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Post by westender on Nov 16, 2011 12:36:46 GMT -1
I think there are times when I have to say 'what's the point'? And I've reached it on here with you. Thereby making my point precisely: clueless. Can't deal with the logic. |
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Post by yonzabam on Nov 27, 2011 18:04:31 GMT -1
I've been looking at the comments on the story about Welsh football manager, Gary Speed's suicide on www.telegraph.co.uk. It's exasperating to read comments saying that it was a selfish act, leaving behind a wife and two sons, that he had so much to live for, couldn't have had money worries etc etc. And the Welsh team have been doing really well, ffs! |
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Post by bormes on Nov 27, 2011 19:09:20 GMT -1
On this very toplic I think this shows very well, the souls who do this are tragic and we do not understand their reasons mostly.
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