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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2013 2:14:46 GMT -1
I was at home in my wee tenement flat in North Kelvinside, preparing for Christmas and looking forward to Mr Rolo getting home overnight from Manchester, the last date on some long tour or other.
Of course, we'd no mobiles back then and only four channels on the TV.
As it happens I heard on the radio that something awful had happened over the skies in Southern Scotland.
I felt panicky on several fronts; first off, to be honest, was his tour bus somehow caught up in the events, was he safe?
Second off, as the news came in, could it really BE that a plane had come down over people's homes, killing people in their beds and ordinary folks going home to their families in the US for Christmas ?
Unbeknown to me at the time, as the news unfolded, my friend Stew, press photographer at the time, was first on the scene of utter carnage. On that darkest of nights he did his duty, he's never spoken of it since.
Mr R got home in the early hours, unawares of what had happened within minutes of him passing Lockerbie, literally a few minutes before.
25 years on, the culprits of that utter atrocity are still free. The Libyan Abdelbaset Al Megrahi was scapegoated, convicted and imprisoned wrongly.
There was always far more to this hideous story than we were allowed to know. Those responsible seem to believe they've got away with it, personally I think not.
It's time the truth came out. And it will surprise precisely nobody.
FOR SHAME.
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Post by notanimby on Dec 17, 2013 7:15:00 GMT -1
I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing on that night.
I was in Reading on a training course, staying at what was then the Ramada hotel - in teh days when Ramada was a posh place. Anyways teh hotel had that new fangled Sky TV ( one channel only at that time)
I was reliably informed by my colleague from Bo'ness that at 2300 Sky changed to show movies of a more adult nature - so there was I watching avidly a programme on pottery making in Tuscany when there was a news flash on a plane coming down in Southern Scotland, all one could get was "newsflashes" as the usual telly news wasnt ramping up quick enough to give wisespread coverage.
We were due to fly back up to Scotland next evening, chaos in and around the Heathrow, usual security in place after the horse had bolted - a surreal experience for sure
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Post by ozneil on Dec 17, 2013 18:35:16 GMT -1
25 years on, the culprits of that utter atrocity are still free. The Libyan Abdelbaset Al Megrahi was scapegoated, convicted and imprisoned wrongly. There was always far more to this hideous story than we were allowed to know. Those responsible seem to believe they've got away with it, personally I think not. It's time the truth came out. And it will surprise precisely nobody. FOR SHAME. I have no idea where I was 25 years ago. Probably at work in Crows Nest I take you are suggesting the Scottish justice system is corrupt or at best naive? If so it doesnt bode well for a future independent nation or Perhaps the scape-goat theory is just another vicious malicious conspiracy theory put out by those who wish to further denigrate and hurt your country for political ends, There are lots of these around If there was a shred of a evidence to substantiate the scape-goat theory one or other of the anti-UK "Civil Liberties" groups would have appealed. No appeal was ever heard. |
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Post by notanimby on Dec 17, 2013 22:24:44 GMT -1
25 years on, the culprits of that utter atrocity are still free. The Libyan Abdelbaset Al Megrahi was scapegoated, convicted and imprisoned wrongly. There was always far more to this hideous story than we were allowed to know. Those responsible seem to believe they've got away with it, personally I think not. It's time the truth came out. And it will surprise precisely nobody. FOR SHAME. I have no idea where I was 25 years ago. Probably at work in Crows Nest I take you are suggesting the Scottish justice system is corrupt or at best naive? If so it doesnt bode well for a future independent nation or Perhaps the scape-goat theory is just another vicious malicious conspiracy theory put out by those who wish to further denigrate and hurt your country for political ends, There are lots of these around If there was a shred of a evidence to substantiate the scape-goat theory one or other of the anti-UK "Civil Liberties" groups would have appealed. No appeal was ever heard. It's a wee bit more complex than that, the main witness is a CIA asset, who was paid a fortune for his testimony, this was never revealed in court, he now lives in Australia. They never mentioned the break in a heathrow the night before, the place were the cargo was being held. The original suspects were the Iranians in retaliation for the US navy blowing an airliner out of the sky earlier. They apparently outsourced the job to some Palestinian group. Suddenly, well when the west needed the support of Iran and Syria for gulf war one, the suspects suddenly changed to the libyans. |
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Post by ozneil on Dec 17, 2013 22:56:50 GMT -1
It's a wee bit more complex than that, the main witness is a CIA asset, who was paid a fortune for his testimony, this was never revealed in court, he now lives in Australia. They never mentioned the break in a heathrow the night before, the place were the cargo was being held. The original suspects were the Iranians in retaliation for the US navy blowing an airliner out of the sky earlier. They apparently outsourced the job to some Palestinian group. Suddenly, well when the west needed the support of Iran and Syria for gulf war one, the suspects suddenly changed to the libyans. [/quote So the Scottish judiciary is corrupt and incompetent? All you have stated is hearsay, innuendo and supposition raised to hurt UK and its government to gain political mileage without any proof or responsibility. Fairly typical of people who want the UK Government to fail irrespective of who is in power. |
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Post by bormes on Dec 17, 2013 22:57:29 GMT -1
Nota is correct OZ and a friend of mine is the lawyer who had his accomplice found NOT GUILTY with the same evidence. He was later engaged to do the appeal for him which was under way when the Scottish Government allowed his release, as is done in these cases in Scotland, as he was dying.
I would venture to say that in every country in the world there are miscarriages of justice I think of well known English ones against ira suspects who were NOT guilty either and I think it is a wonderful system that allows redress I would much much rather admit a mistake than continue a cover up.
My friend who in a professional position would never comment on a person he was defending has now retired and I suspect there might be a book coming along. He never thought he was guilty of what he was charged with, neither was his so called accomplice.
I do not think our judges were either corrupt, inept not naive, I think the evidence was faulty and certainly one of the witnesses was corrupt.
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Post by ozneil on Dec 17, 2013 23:08:04 GMT -1
Yes maybe but its still hearsay and rumour.
Your judges arent fools.
Refresh my mind on the trail . I think from memory it was in the Nerherlands under Scottish law with 3 judges and no jury. but none the less the court must have thought evidence was pretty conclusive to find the guy guilty. Certainly much more so than you or me having all the evidence first hand before them rather than relying on reports and rumous that are biased
Of course the lawyers "believe" their client. They have too or they couldnt take the brief.
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Post by notanimby on Dec 17, 2013 23:18:06 GMT -1
Yes maybe but its still hearsay and rumour. Your judges arent fools. Refresh my mind on the trail . I think from memory it was in the Nerherlands under Scottish law with 3 judges and no jury. but none the less the court must have thought evidence was pretty conclusive to find the guy guilty. Certainly much more so than you or me having all the evidence first hand before them rather than relying on reports and rumous that are biased Of course the lawyers "believe" their client. They have too or they couldnt take the brief. It's not hearsay about the CIA guy, they, the CIA freely admit it. One of the grounds for the appeal is in fact that, under Scots Law paying a witness for testimony is not allowed. It was never revealed that was the case until long after the trial.. They found one guy guilty and one not guilty............ |
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Post by ozneil on Dec 17, 2013 23:29:42 GMT -1
It's not hearsay about the CIA guy, they, the CIA freely admit it. One of the grounds for the appeal is in fact that, under Scots Law paying a witness for testimony is not allowed. It was never revealed that was the case until long after the trial.. They found one guy guilty and one not guilty............ Oh in that case why wasn't a mis-trial declared? As you say you judiciary isnt corrupt so why wasnt it? or is it just more hearsay and rumour? |
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Post by notanimby on Dec 18, 2013 5:28:57 GMT -1
It's not hearsay about the CIA guy, they, the CIA freely admit it. One of the grounds for the appeal is in fact that, under Scots Law paying a witness for testimony is not allowed. It was never revealed that was the case until long after the trial.. They found one guy guilty and one not guilty............ Oh in that case why wasn't a mis-trial declared? As you say you judiciary isnt corrupt so why wasnt it? or is it just more hearsay and rumour? It is a fact about the CIA, it is one of the tenets of the appeal, along with other issues. I never said the judiciary wasn't corrupt. But I don't think that is the correct word, more like the judiciary is part of the establishment |
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Post by bormes on Dec 18, 2013 10:43:12 GMT -1
The evidence against them BOTH was the same, I can not understand how one was free and one was guilty?
Why is the ex head of the FBI now, yesterday saying there will be more arrests and he is now in light of new evidence about CIA involvement not happy about the guilty verdict.
Nota is correct about the paid informant OZ and that was withheld during the trial and it will eventually come out that Iran was behind it. Of that I am certain.
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Post by notanimby on Dec 18, 2013 11:26:18 GMT -1
Another thing to highlight, is that teh bomb was "primed" to go off over the Atlantic, the plane was running late, if te plane had passed Lockerbie and exploded 5 mins later it would have beeen over teh Clyde, mainly Greenock/Port Glasgow/Gourock areas as we sit directly below teh path of planes heading across teh Atlantic
The loss of life on the ground would have been significantly higher if that had happened
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 19:04:16 GMT -1
Nota is correct OZ and a friend of mine is the lawyer who had his accomplice found NOT GUILTY with the same evidence. He was later engaged to do the appeal for him which was under way when the Scottish Government allowed his release, as is done in these cases in Scotland, as he was dying. I would venture to say that in every country in the world there are miscarriages of justice I think of well known English ones against ira suspects who were NOT guilty either and I think it is a wonderful system that allows redress I would much much rather admit a mistake than continue a cover up. My friend who in a professional position would never comment on a person he was defending has now retired and I suspect there might be a book coming along. He never thought he was guilty of what he was charged with, neither was his so called accomplice. I do not think our judges were either corrupt, inept not naive, I think the evidence was faulty and certainly one of the witnesses was corrupt. Bormes is correct about the appeal, Oz. Al Megrahi was preparing one when he died. It may or may not go ahead. I'm not suggesting either that our justice system either corrupt or naive. What I'm suggesting is that the main witness who tied Al Megrahi to the purchase of clothing in Malta was 'mistaken' at best as it's the sole evidence he was involved. As Nota says, the evidence that the bomb was put on the plane in Europe may also be deeply flawed. Also agree with Bormes about our system of redress. There are several cases of guilty verdicts that have been overturned. The US were, for many years, keen to extradite Al Megrahi and try him under the US system. The Scottish Government refused, rightly so, to hand over a man who would very likely have been executed. The verdict was politically convenient. The theory that the Iranians were behind it, in revenge for the shooting down by the US of a passenger plane over the Gulf, has a lot going for it. Hopefully one day justice WILL be done because the person(s) that did this have so far got away with it. Sure, it won't bring back that poor man, who even Jim Swire, tireless campaigner who lost his daughter, believed was not guilty. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 19:09:01 GMT -1
Of course the lawyers "believe" their client. They have too or they couldnt take the brief. You sure about that?  A good friend of mine, a well kent solicitor-advocate in the Scottish judiciary, when questioned by me on that very point a while back, repeated the mantra that everyone has the right to a defence in law. Stopped short of saying he's defended people he knows to be guilty, but only just... These guys argue points of law, not emotions or beliefs. |
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Post by ozneil on Dec 18, 2013 19:15:15 GMT -1
what I am saying is until evidence is tested in a court of law to check the veracity it is only hearsay rumour and opinion. It cannot be regarded as "gospel". What you say may or may not be correct . We shall have to wait and see.
As you know a lot of conspiracy theories and innuendoes are started deliberately to hurt. Im this case the UK.
The plane was 90 minutes late in leaving LHR. If it had been ontime it would have been 600 miles further on
Not said the Judiciary were part of the establishment. I thought yours , Scottish, was like ours answered to the "crown" and not parliament ie was independent.
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