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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 21:16:29 GMT -1
Yet again, David Cameron's refused to debate the issues of independence, live on TV, with our First Minister. Can't think why.... 60%+ of Scots, in a recent poll, want this debate to happen. 50% of rUK respondents ALSO want this to happen. David Cameron is the Prime Minister of the current Union. I along with hundreds of thousands of others want to know what his plans are for Scotland in the coming years. His continuing refusal to debate, head to head, is an insult to us all.
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Post by notanimby on Jan 8, 2014 21:31:18 GMT -1
Yet again, David Cameron's refused to debate the issues of independence, live on TV, with our First Minister. Can't think why.... 60%+ of Scots, in a recent poll, want this debate to happen. 50% of rUK respondents ALSO want this to happen. David Cameron is the Prime Minister of the current Union. I along with hundreds of thousands of others want to know what his plans are for Scotland in the coming years. His continuing refusal to debate, head to head, is an insult to us all. He's shit scared, a poor debater and doesn't want a showing up
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 21:45:31 GMT -1
Possibly all of the above, Nota.
But I do think his continuing refusal is helping even more of the large bank of undecideds to make their minds up. It's frankly RIDICULOUS that he used his New Year's Message to the UKE to appeal to the Scots to 'stay' yet won't actually get his hands dirty in a down and out face to face debate.
Seems to me in appealing to the Scots to 'stay' he DOESN"T actually speak for the majority of rUK after all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 21:49:37 GMT -1
rUK is being badly misled. There's still a huge body of ignorant opinion, for example, that the Scots are a burden to the English taxpayer. When in fact the opposite is true. Cameron just can't face admitting the facts that his own government via GERS report have already proved. Which is that without Scotland's tax resources there's one almighty black (can I still say that?) hole in the rUK budget.
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Post by ozneil on Jan 8, 2014 22:16:16 GMT -1
In my opinion its far too serious for a debate between leaders.
Its far to complicated for that and has to be nutted out properly not just on a point scoring debate.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 22:30:54 GMT -1
Do you not think both leaders have to put their case, Oz?
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Post by ozneil on Jan 8, 2014 22:35:08 GMT -1
Do you not think both leaders have to put their case, Oz? Yes definitely but in writing so that it can be dissected clause by clause with omissions and errors ironed out. NOT on a limited time TV spectacular Salmond has done this but havent seen anything from Cameron nor have I seen any in depth critique of Salmond's proposal but the latter is probably just me not looking for it
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 22:46:58 GMT -1
Well no, Oz. There's no point by point critique of the White Paper proposals to date.
Re TV 'spectacular': I believe David Cameron is partly running scared and partly has a sense of arrogance that he shouldn't be seen to be 'campaigning'.
In reality, Cameron, as Nota said, isn't the greatest of debaters, he lacks charisma (and a whole lot of other attributes). Salmond is an excellent debater, erudite, smart and doesn't need to rely on a scripted autoprompt.
But most of all he's a conviction politician where Cameron is a career politician. It's THAT that DC is scared of. That and the undisputed fact that the SNP/current Scottish Government won by a considerable landslide, while the Tories could only form a UK govt with the help of the lily-livered LibDems.
And his refusal to debate one to one is increasingly being seen as a fatal weakness, and NOT just by the Scots.
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Post by ozneil on Jan 8, 2014 23:11:57 GMT -1
Well I wouldnt risk my whole future on the skill of a debater
If I were either leader I would refuse to debate ... too important.
The lack of a response and a critique worries me, It would worry me enough to say "hang on a minute"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 0:03:50 GMT -1
Well I wouldnt risk my whole future on the skill of a debater Why not? We need smart conviction politicians such as Eck who can debate and challenge the feck out of those who rely on autocue and legions of civil servants telling them what to say. It may have escaped your notice (god knows how!) but Scots actively WANT politicians that stand up, loud and proud, for the best interests of the Scottish people. Cameron should just accept the challenge to debate live with Salmond in good grace. He's getting off lightly, considering we could unleash Nicola on him instead...
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Post by ozneil on Jan 9, 2014 3:44:53 GMT -1
I would rather rely on written proposals rather that a erudite speaker.
9 months to go and nothing concrete except an unchallenged "White Paper"
Get the lead out!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 22:22:59 GMT -1
Ozneil, I'm with you on this, I want to see it in writing.
I've watched this forum with interest because I'm really struggling with which way to go as I'm in the undecided camp. I've met Salmond many times in my role in life and each time I've struggled with my perception of 'full of himself' to 'master communicator'. His own admission that 'We would never achieve a Utopia' regarding the kind of Scotland it appears many of us would want, is quite right but I perceive an expectation that many have 'unrealistic ideas and expectations' of what would happen when and if, Scotland became independent.
I am also undecided because I would want to hold 'joint nationality' as I don't want to be an alien in a foreign country. I don't want to lose the pound and that's not dead certain either that we would keep that (I wanted the Euro but having seen the effects of that on the Eurozone - no thanks, not just now). I don't want to leave the European Union but the Tories want to have a Referendum on that but there is no dead cert we in Scotland if we go it alone will automatically be members of the Community.
I don't struggle with change but this is a major decision and one that we must make, in my view, by informed choice but not on sentiment and I find it difficult to separate the two. I'm delighted to see the continued debate on here as it does help but it also leaves me swaying from side to side.
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Post by ozneil on Jan 9, 2014 23:47:43 GMT -1
Until Salmond's White paper is properly analysed, not by the Dorothy Dixer questions and answers at the back, it remains a statement of intent or a wish list if you will and has no factual evidence to back it up as yet. I hope it will soon.
It looks like Cameron is playing a waiting game and if no proper recognised analysis of the Salmond White paper is made complete with professionally forecast budgets uncertainty will remain in people's mind
As a foreigner I am not yet convinced of the viability of Scotland as a separate nation. To me too many glib statements and assumptions in the White Paper without back up
You have 8 months!!!!!!!
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Post by bormes on Jan 10, 2014 17:18:53 GMT -1
One of the points I personally have found that helps me Gil. Is I have found Eire a rather wonderful and happy place, yes they have their problems, however not nearly as many as England, in fact their biggest problem seems to be the power their church has over ordinary people and even that is changing. I compare Scotland to Eire and Denmark and I think we have many more natural resources than either of them and they have a much fairer country and happier people with less real poverty than the UK. They also have a much smaller gap between the wealthy and the poorest. Their working people do not need benefits to live. We also have a bonus of oil and in the PAST and hopefully again in the future a wonderful education system. Hope that helps even a wee bit Gil.
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Post by notanimby on Jan 10, 2014 18:24:48 GMT -1
One of the points I personally have found that helps me Gil. Is I have found Eire a rather wonderful and happy place, yes they have their problems, however not nearly as many as England, in fact their biggest problem seems to be the power their church has over ordinary people and even that is changing. I compare Scotland to Eire and Denmark and I think we have many more natural resources than either of them and they have a much fairer country and happier people with less real poverty than the UK. They also have a much smaller gap between the wealthy and the poorest. Their working people do not need benefits to live. We also have a bonus of oil and in the PAST and hopefully again in the future a wonderful education system. Hope that helps even a wee bit Gil. I'm with you on that one B, Eire has had it's problems but have overcome them and their economy is growing at a good rate again. It may also interest folk to know that citizens of Eire are not classed as "foreigners" by the UK. The Ireland Act of 1949 states - s. 2(1) – Declared that, even though the Republic of Ireland was no longer a British dominion, it would not be treated as a foreign country for the purposes of British law.
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