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Post by bormes on Jan 12, 2014 16:49:47 GMT -1
Well said nota.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2014 19:56:29 GMT -1
As the debate has progressed, we now enter the murky waters of 'corporate deals, govt subsidies and so on.' I have to ask this question. Do those who support Independence truly believe (hand on hearts stuff) that this position will change because of Independence? I am going to stick my hand up and say 'No.' And that's why I've been asking questions about Independence - as I think the 'utopia' of the fairer society is a mere definition and will never be achieved. Why? I think all govts do deals, all 'Treasuries' court business, unfair societies will always be with us - as someone will always find a way to screw the system or skirt around legislation. I don't think that any govt can deliver a fairer society, because society won't tolerate it. I know this appears to be negative but if we 'give' to one group of people, we are viewed as 'taking' from another group. It's not about fairness, it's not about equality - what I think those who want Independence are looking for is; transparency, integrity and accountability - if I've summed up this whole thread and I fear that will be a disappointment for many. Fair and relevant question, Gilly. I'm not voting YES because I believe we'll all live happy ever after in some cartoon 'Utopia' but because I believe it's not beyond our ken to run a fairer society and a more equitable division of our considerable wealth. Of course Scotland will need inward investment, and yes, a degree of incentives, that is the normal way to expand our economy and provide jobs. Indeed the current government sets huge store by attracting businesses into Scotland, Amazon being just the first example that comes to mind. The difference-I believe- will be that these companies will be required to pay a living (not a minimum) wage at the bottom end, and crucially to pay a level of corporation tax that is fair, considering the skilled workforce Scotland can provide. However there's also many other ways that companies can be persuaded to contribute to the communities they're based in. For example in Shetland, the big global oil and gas conglomerates have provided more swimming pools/leisure centres and community benefits than can be found per capita in any other part of the UKE. You're right, of course, that some will always try to buck ANY system, that is capitalist greed at its worst. I guess what we want, as you say, is transparency, accountability and yes, integrity as the basic intention that we want to live by. You'll never stamp out the cheaters but we'd have a bloody good shot at imposing some sort of moral code for the benefit of the Scottish people. As Nota, says, we're in it for the long haul. There has never been, nor will there ever be a 'Utopia'; but I hope, in my lifetime, to see a better Scotland emerge for my daughter, her generation and future generations.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2014 20:08:21 GMT -1
Gil, In my opinion you have put a very astute and accurate summary on what may well happen. My belief is that in a smaller country where things can not be hidden so easily and a decent education standard will be set once again, we will be in a position to keep corruption as low as possible. We will NEVER stop it, we must continue to try to stop it and we can get rid of the groups of people who by accident of birth seem to have rights and wealth and titles that normal mortals do not have, normal people have to strive AGAINST the status quo to get on as the system is set up to suit those with hereditary wealth to retain it. I do think and I have travelled a lot of the world, Scots are a generous hard working group of people with quite a black sense of humour. I think we are different, particularly nowadays to England and I do think we have a different outlook on life. Not much different but different. Economically we can do much much better and if you can not see that with all the information out there then with respect you have not looked in the right places yet!! The whole culture of the UK. Is based on the English Gentleman sort of propaganda and has been since the Duke of Wellington. It is a false charade. I truly think that we will be better off, better educated and a fairer society and with the small numbers we have that goal is easier to achieve, particularly as we have seen the corruption of the UK in the last forty years. At the end of the day if I am going to be fucked by someone, then I would rather be fucked by my own politicians because I am closer to them in every way even geographically so I feel I can do more to correct any faults that come along. Good luck with your research. That's one belter of a post, Bormes. Totally agree with you and Nota's point about us being such a small country, we can react faster to our society's needs because our politicians are so much closer, in so many ways, to the population. And much closer to our wrath when they feck up We're generally less susceptible to the class system that still rules in our neighbour's country too which contributes to the 'different outlook' Bormes rightly identifies.
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Post by ozneil on Jan 12, 2014 20:52:48 GMT -1
You GUYS are impressing me . No blind faith but questioning the whole thing
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2014 15:32:26 GMT -1
I too am impressed but I have to be careful as I take this September's historic vote very seriously. The elephant in the room for me has just been opened up, 'the class' system which is very prominent especially the further south you go in England. Indeed, I know that Scotland had 'Lairds, Nobles and Earls' but they were 'our' Lairds, Nobles and Earls along with our Clan Chiefs. In England it's still not unusual to find Rodger Badgerarse-Fuckwit who believes in 'England and St George, for the Empire.' How his bubble is going to be burst when he finally accepts that the UK is no longer a world domineering power.
It is that aspect of the UK that I would want to be well rid off, but I am still swaying over the Pound and Dual Nationality, which I make no apologies for - I want to retain both the pound and my British Nationality. I know the 'Yes' campaign are trying to scare us with the 'passport controls' at the border and that's mince because we will undoubtedly continue as we are with a common travel agreement as is the case with Eire.
I want to keep the pound because I don't like what happens to those countries that adopt the Euro, from my experience costs shoot up! I don't want to have to exchange the Euro for the 'English' pound and so it is the trivia that doesn't help me but also pensions, etc. There is still a lot of fact finding but I love the passion and the faith demonstrated in here.
It would help if there was at least one 'Pro-Union' voice to give us another side of the debate, it all helps us who are undecided.
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Post by notanimby on Jan 13, 2014 16:28:53 GMT -1
I too am impressed but I have to be careful as I take this September's historic vote very seriously. The elephant in the room for me has just been opened up, 'the class' system which is very prominent especially the further south you go in England. Indeed, I know that Scotland had 'Lairds, Nobles and Earls' but they were 'our' Lairds, Nobles and Earls along with our Clan Chiefs. In England it's still not unusual to find Rodger Badgerarse-Fuckwit who believes in 'England and St George, for the Empire.' How his bubble is going to be burst when he finally accepts that the UK is no longer a world domineering power. It is that aspect of the UK that I would want to be well rid off, but I am still swaying over the Pound and Dual Nationality, which I make no apologies for - I want to retain both the pound and my British Nationality. I know the 'Yes' campaign are trying to scare us with the 'passport controls' at the border and that's mince because we will undoubtedly continue as we are with a common travel agreement as is the case with Eire. I want to keep the pound because I don't like what happens to those countries that adopt the Euro, from my experience costs shoot up! I don't want to have to exchange the Euro for the 'English' pound and so it is the trivia that doesn't help me but also pensions, etc. There is still a lot of fact finding but I love the passion and the faith demonstrated in here. It would help if there was at least one 'Pro-Union' voice to give us another side of the debate, it all helps us who are undecided. It's the NO campaign who are doing the scaring about border posts. Dual nationality won't be a problem unless the UK govt says so, they allow dual nationality for others. Why does it concern you? As for currency, personally I think the pound is heading to be a busted flush, its a house of cards, once Scotland achieves independence, it will be worse for Sterling if there's no currency zone. Oil reserves currently underpin the pound. You'll notice that no one in the UK government has categorically said no to a currency union. Also the news today that the UK government will still own the debt shows that too. As or the Euro, no one can be forced to join it, even new members of the EU, here's why Party line is all new members must adopt Euro, but you have to be in the ERM for two years before hand. Joining the ERM is entirely optional. Personal preference is use the pound for a few years then adopt our wn currency. UK government cannot stop us from using the pound anyways, as its an internationally traded currency, anyone who likes can use it..
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2014 19:33:39 GMT -1
I too am impressed but I have to be careful as I take this September's historic vote very seriously. The elephant in the room for me has just been opened up, 'the class' system which is very prominent especially the further south you go in England. Indeed, I know that Scotland had 'Lairds, Nobles and Earls' but they were 'our' Lairds, Nobles and Earls along with our Clan Chiefs. In England it's still not unusual to find Rodger Badgerarse-Fuckwit who believes in 'England and St George, for the Empire.' How his bubble is going to be burst when he finally accepts that the UK is no longer a world domineering power. It is that aspect of the UK that I would want to be well rid off, but I am still swaying over the Pound and Dual Nationality, which I make no apologies for - I want to retain both the pound and my British Nationality. I know the 'Yes' campaign are trying to scare us with the 'passport controls' at the border and that's mince because we will undoubtedly continue as we are with a common travel agreement as is the case with Eire. I want to keep the pound because I don't like what happens to those countries that adopt the Euro, from my experience costs shoot up! I don't want to have to exchange the Euro for the 'English' pound and so it is the trivia that doesn't help me but also pensions, etc. There is still a lot of fact finding but I love the passion and the faith demonstrated in here. It would help if there was at least one 'Pro-Union' voice to give us another side of the debate, it all helps us who are undecided. Gilly, this piece might be of interest on the question of retaining the pound. Granted I'm quoting from Business for Scotland today, who are campaigning for YES, but I hope you find the report helpful. www.businessforscotland.co.uk/uk-government-plans-to-share-sterling-currency-with-indy-scotland/Re adopting the Euro, in principle I don't object but in reality I think we need to ca' canny-- in the short to medium term, anyway. Eire had horrendous problems at first, things got very bad indeed for a while back there and it's only now there's a serious recovery going on. Norway, on the other hand, has not adopted the Euro but still gets considerable trading benefit from being associated with the EU. On pensions, there's a section in the Scottish Government White Paper devoted to this, it's too expansive to quote here. You can find the document on the Scottish Government website or I could email you the document as a PDF if you like? I'm afraid I don't have the NO Campaign's equivalent plan
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2014 22:55:30 GMT -1
Nota, Dual Nationality concerns me because I am Scottish but also British, born in Britain and I want to retain that status but I might not necessarily want to maintain my connection with the Westminster Parliament.
It's one of the reasons that I am in the 'undecided camp' and I've read through some of the White Paper (not all of it, as Mr Salmond sent me a copy, which nearly killed my postie) and I am not 100% convinced and so that's why I am asking around, reading other peoples views and asking questions here because I suspect that there will be many viewing this forum and this thread but not contributing and I don't mind asking daft questions - if I and others learn something and can make an informed choice rather than a 'Braveheart moment.'
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Post by ozneil on Jan 13, 2014 22:57:18 GMT -1
Im with Gilly. There is too many suppositions in Salmond's White Paper that have not yet been challenged. Like all Pollies he tells you what he wants you to hear I have looked at "Business for Scotland" In more particular the member list. No one there can be considered a "Captain of Industry" or even an economist. In other words pretty light weight. Course I may have missed some. PS Ya gorra have critiques to enable you to sell your message to cynical bastards like me I dont know if I have a vote, I certainly according to Mr S have dual nationality but even if I do its not my place to vote.
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Post by ozneil on Jan 13, 2014 23:18:23 GMT -1
Dont kid yourself Gilly Scotland has it share of Upper Class twits. One was rather surprised by my attitude coz I wasnt impressed by his "superiority" and didnt bow to his opinion. He excused it by saying "of Course you are from the Colonies" If my fiance had not giggled Sir High & mighty came close to losing teeth, was in a pub after s "rugger match" and I think the bastards had beaten us. I regret to say not an unusual occurrence On other hand I met Sir Alec Douglas-Hume a thorough gentleman You need more like him
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Post by notanimby on Jan 14, 2014 7:00:32 GMT -1
Im with Gilly. There is too many suppositions in Salmond's White Paper that have not yet been challenged. Like all Pollies he tells you what he wants you to hear I have looked at "Business for Scotland" In more particular the member list. No one there can be considered a "Captain of Industry" or even an economist. In other words pretty light weight. Course I may have missed some. PS Ya gorra have critiques to enable you to sell your message to cynical bastards like me I dont know if I have a vote, I certainly according to Mr S have dual nationality but even if I do its not my place to vote. Dinnae fret, you don't have a vote in the referendum
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Post by notanimby on Jan 14, 2014 7:06:09 GMT -1
Nota, Dual Nationality concerns me because I am Scottish but also British, born in Britain and I want to retain that status but I might not necessarily want to maintain my connection with the Westminster Parliament. It's one of the reasons that I am in the 'undecided camp' and I've read through some of the White Paper (not all of it, as Mr Salmond sent me a copy, which nearly killed my postie) and I am not 100% convinced and so that's why I am asking around, reading other peoples views and asking questions here because I suspect that there will be many viewing this forum and this thread but not contributing and I don't mind asking daft questions - if I and others learn something and can make an informed choice rather than a 'Braveheart moment.' Retaining citizenship of whats left of the UK will be down to westminster, not the Scottish Government. Under current UK law having dual-nationality is allowed, I cant see any reason why teh Scottish Government would be daft enough to not allow it either. Personally I couldn't give a stuff about having citizenship of whats left of the UK, I can't see what benefit it would give me ( or anyone else for that matter) You only have to look at how many UK citizens travel on an Irish passport -most famous just now is John Simpson the journalist, to see that given teh opperchancity many cant see teh benefit either
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Post by bormes on Jan 14, 2014 8:47:55 GMT -1
Having people who think they are a cut above others is a problem in English aristocracy to be sure but there are people like that in every country, I can think of an actor from OZ a singer from a band who wears dark glasses to bed BONO!! Naw people like that everywhere and like nota the last thing I would want is a UK passport when we RETURN. To running our OWN country.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 9:07:28 GMT -1
Dont kid yourself Gilly Scotland has it share of Upper Class twits. One was rather surprised by my attitude coz I wasnt impressed by his "superiority" and didnt bow to his opinion. He excused it by saying "of Course you are from the Colonies" If my fiance had not giggled Sir High & mighty came close to losing teeth, was in a pub after s "rugger match" and I think the bastards had beaten us. I regret to say not an unusual occurrence On other hand I met Sir Alec Douglas-Hume a thorough gentleman You need more like him Ozneil I thought I'd made that perfectly clear about 'class' and I'm under no illusion that there is a class system in Scotland but I don't believe it's anything like south of the Watford Gap....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 19:53:50 GMT -1
Im with Gilly. There is too many suppositions in Salmond's White Paper that have not yet been challenged. Like all Pollies he tells you what he wants you to hear I have looked at "Business for Scotland" In more particular the member list. No one there can be considered a "Captain of Industry" or even an economist. In other words pretty light weight. Course I may have missed some. PS Ya gorra have critiques to enable you to sell your message to cynical bastards like me I dont know if I have a vote, I certainly according to Mr S have dual nationality but even if I do its not my place to vote. The Scottish government have put forward their vision, Oz. We await the Unionists challenge to anything contained in the White Paper. I think you'd be making a grave mistake in assuming Alex Salmond is 'like all politicians'. Re Business for Scotland, you're entirely correct in that some 'captains of industry' have not declared themselves members of that particular group. However many are speaking out for YES on their own terms. I merely quoted the report because it was current and accurately, factually described the state of affairs that Gilly was highlighting. Re 'selling a message', that sounds pretty cynical to me, if you don't mind me saying. I think the future of Scotland, for the vast majority of our people, can't be distilled down into such a simple intent. It's MUCH more important than that.
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