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Post by ozneil on Jan 10, 2014 21:41:21 GMT -1
It may also interest folk to know that citizens of Eire are not classed as "foreigners" by the UK. The Ireland Act of 1949 states - s. 2(1) – Declared that, even though the Republic of Ireland was no longer a British dominion, it would not be treated as a foreign country for the purposes of British law.Lucky them. WE are classified as foreigners since the advent of EU!!!!!  Such is UK gratitude/loyalty!!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2014 9:03:07 GMT -1
I have family in Eire and the north, I don't think they would share the optimism expressed here about 'growth' as one group is near the 'ghost village' of new houses built but no one lives in them due to the bubble that burst and the developer went bust with it. The high cost of living along with the Euro has caused some to move to England. They remember when Salmond spoke about the 'Arc of Prosperity' and the countries listed all had problems and quite significant ones too.
It is all so confusing, I need to see facts on paper and not be swayed by sentiment but I feel that's the way this debate will end, with hearts ruling heads and that's never a good thing.
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Post by notanimby on Jan 11, 2014 10:19:50 GMT -1
I have family in Eire and the north, I don't think they would share the optimism expressed here about 'growth' as one group is near the 'ghost village' of new houses built but no one lives in them due to the bubble that burst and the developer went bust with it. The high cost of living along with the Euro has caused some to move to England. They remember when Salmond spoke about the 'Arc of Prosperity' and the countries listed all had problems and quite significant ones too. It is all so confusing, I need to see facts on paper and not be swayed by sentiment but I feel that's the way this debate will end, with hearts ruling heads and that's never a good thing. HI G, The arc of prosperity is still there, just different countries have different ways of dealing with it. Iceland for example let the banks go under and jailed the those responsible, again it came out of recession much faster than us, not only that they paid off any debt they had in double quick time too The UK debt is currently around £1.4 TRILLION and rising, that's more than Eire, Spain, Greece etc put together - there's absolutely no hope of being rid of that ever. There's plenty of facts and information to be found, you'll not find much of it in the MSM though........ I would point you at the OECD first of all, their figures show how far the UK is falling behind, Eire may be on its uppers somewhat but its doing far better than the UK quality wise. www.oecd.org/I also tend to look at a lot of pro-independence blogs, they'll obviously in their musing have a bias but the stats they mine are very good, even if they do not always present the ideal view wingsoverscotland.com/Is very good for research, it also contains links to many other blogs and websites, not all of an independence bias. If you would like a more centre-right view then try these www.scottishdemocraticalliance.com/They have examples of a new constitution, ideas on defence blah blah blah - quite interesting reading. www.wealthynation.org/ - a bit more traditional tory values here, not traditionally Thatcherite but more of a Scots "one nation" conservatism For me personally, I couldn't really give a toss about the financials ( I do believe we will be OK but it will be difficult at times) I'm more for the ideas of a written constitution, a free and democratic society, a Scotland that is governed by the people who live and work in Scotland for the benefit of the ALL the people of Scotland. |
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Post by bormes on Jan 11, 2014 14:33:16 GMT -1
Nota's last paragraph does it for me, I am not Anti English but there are a huge number ( having served in the Army for ten years) of those down South who think they run the Empire and are a cut above the rough Scots.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2014 17:58:47 GMT -1
Nota - thanks and that's the first posting on any forum that provides me with information to research for myself and try to make a semi-educated decision based on the facts presented. I will now go through each link and wherever they lead me. I do like the 'Abe Lincoln' style end of your post, "Government for the people, by the people....". That sounds good!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2014 19:04:13 GMT -1
Ozneil, I'm with you on this, I want to see it in writing. I've watched this forum with interest because I'm really struggling with which way to go as I'm in the undecided camp. I've met Salmond many times in my role in life and each time I've struggled with my perception of 'full of himself' to 'master communicator'. His own admission that 'We would never achieve a Utopia' regarding the kind of Scotland it appears many of us would want, is quite right but I perceive an expectation that many have 'unrealistic ideas and expectations' of what would happen when and if, Scotland became independent. I am also undecided because I would want to hold 'joint nationality' as I don't want to be an alien in a foreign country. I don't want to lose the pound and that's not dead certain either that we would keep that (I wanted the Euro but having seen the effects of that on the Eurozone - no thanks, not just now). I don't want to leave the European Union but the Tories want to have a Referendum on that but there is no dead cert we in Scotland if we go it alone will automatically be members of the Community. I don't struggle with change but this is a major decision and one that we must make, in my view, by informed choice but not on sentiment and I find it difficult to separate the two. I'm delighted to see the continued debate on here as it does help but it also leaves me swaying from side to side. Hi Gilly, You're so right that the decision we make has to be an informed one, couldn't agree more. There's so much to be considered in the next 8 months and it'd be foolhardy to rush into ANY decision without a reasonable grasp of the facts. It won't surprise anyone here to know I nailed my colours to the Yes Campaign some two years ago. I took that decision after a lifetime of voting for a party that increasingly took Scotland's votes for granted and as a government made some TERRIBLE decisions----- but more importantly, because I firmly believe the Scots are capable of self-government and have all it takes to build a fairer, better society for all. I know so many people who're undecided and I have the utmost respect for that position. Let's keep talking over all the issues and sharing the info and views that we have. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2014 19:38:46 GMT -1
One of the points I personally have found that helps me Gil. Is I have found Eire a rather wonderful and happy place, yes they have their problems, however not nearly as many as England, in fact their biggest problem seems to be the power their church has over ordinary people and even that is changing. I compare Scotland to Eire and Denmark and I think we have many more natural resources than either of them and they have a much fairer country and happier people with less real poverty than the UK. They also have a much smaller gap between the wealthy and the poorest. Their working people do not need benefits to live. We also have a bonus of oil and in the PAST and hopefully again in the future a wonderful education system. Hope that helps even a wee bit Gil. Have to agree with you, Bormes. Eire had dire problems when first joining the Euro but over time the position continues to improve. And Denmark's reported year in year out as having the happiest citizens. Many report finding Eire relatively expensive to visit but it doesn't seem to put people off. Knowing I guess that people are being paid properly for their work goes a long way. You hit the nail on the head re the gap between wealthy and everyone else. I'd like to see a fairer distribution of income in Scotland--not by penalising entrepreneurship but by taxing fairly the big companies who're currently excused by the UKE government from paying anything but minimal tax. This is not about benefits being too generous (apart from those few screwing the broo), it's about wages being kept artificially low compared to inflation. |
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Post by ozneil on Jan 11, 2014 20:40:58 GMT -1
You tax the big companies "fairly" and they leave
They are immoral bastards.
The trick is finding the balance between incentives to make them stay providing jobs etc and getting them to pay "reasonable" tax.
You pays your money you takes your choice
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Post by bormes on Jan 11, 2014 20:55:20 GMT -1
I agree with you here OZ and I feel quite strongly about some of the multi's for example Starfucks and Mc Donald's now surely we could run some coffee shops and hamburger joints and pay our normal taxes?
I mean most of these outlets had planning permission when local people could never have it, strange eh? No corruption then? All our Motorway service stations food halls are Multi's and they are AWFUL.
I am certain there are many people out there that could run much better places than the crap we have?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2014 1:33:29 GMT -1
You tax the big companies "fairly" and they leave They are immoral bastards. The trick is finding the balance between incentives to make them stay providing jobs etc and getting them to pay "reasonable" tax.
You pays your money you takes your choice Well, yes and no, Oz. Don't know about where you are but hereabouts the big multinationals get away with murder. That whole 'job creation' thing's trotted out ad infinitum but they pay SUCH low wages (and get govt subsidies like rent free periods and not paying any tax) that in the end, everyone in the country is SUBSIDISING them being in business. Plus topping up the low wages of their employees by way of housing benefit and tax credits out of the welfare budget. In the UKE the majority of benefits claimants are either 1) in work and 2) OAPs, who've already paid into the system.
I'm with Bormes on this. We have plenty enterprising decent people who can provide (BETTER!) cafes/restaurants/nightclubs/venues/independent shops, we really do not need to 'court' the big chains like Starfucks, McD's, Nando's etc. They arrive with global investment behind them, give it discounting at first until they've driven local competitors into the ground, then they put their prices up. And still pay their employees less than a living wage. I'm not a daft, Oz, I don't work for nothing and neither should anyone else. It's fine to make a profit but not to the point where you're taking the utter piss with execrable wages and exploiting people. That's not how we do things in Scotland. And anyone that does can fuck right off, frankly.  |
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Post by ozneil on Jan 12, 2014 4:55:29 GMT -1
Different countries different regs our min wage is a living wage so you dont have to tip!
Starbucks came here with a mighty fanfare and left very quietly I believe there are still 2 in Melbourne and thats it!
Aldis have been here a few years but they are pushing sh*t up hill to match Woolworths (not the Yank outfit)and Coles
MCDonalds here are franchises as is KFC.
General Motors are pulling out they can manufacture much boggin'er* in Asia. In this case the Unions priced themselves out of a job.
*I typed in c h e a p e r several times but that appeared I give up
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Post by bormes on Jan 12, 2014 10:21:39 GMT -1
Have to agree totally with Rolo in her post.
One wee example is Nissan, they assemble vehicles in the YUK, they pay no tax as the vehicle makes no profit, yet because it is assembled in the YUK it means they can be sold all over the EU.
The manufacturing profit is made in another country where the tax is either not paid at all or is so low that to pay tax in YUK. Would be astronomical for them.
That is where OZ is right we need to balance a system where we can encourage jobs but not the way it is being done now as Rolo shows.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2014 13:11:30 GMT -1
As the debate has progressed, we now enter the murky waters of 'corporate deals, govt subsidies and so on.'
I have to ask this question. Do those who support Independence truly believe (hand on hearts stuff) that this position will change because of Independence?
I am going to stick my hand up and say 'No.' And that's why I've been asking questions about Independence - as I think the 'utopia' of the fairer society is a mere definition and will never be achieved. Why?
I think all govts do deals, all 'Treasuries' court business, unfair societies will always be with us - as someone will always find a way to screw the system or skirt around legislation. I don't think that any govt can deliver a fairer society, because society won't tolerate it. I know this appears to be negative but if we 'give' to one group of people, we are viewed as 'taking' from another group.
It's not about fairness, it's not about equality - what I think those who want Independence are looking for is; transparency, integrity and accountability - if I've summed up this whole thread and I fear that will be a disappointment for many.
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Post by bormes on Jan 12, 2014 15:22:51 GMT -1
Gil,
In my opinion you have put a very astute and accurate summary on what may well happen.
My belief is that in a smaller country where things can not be hidden so easily and a decent education standard will be set once again, we will be in a position to keep corruption as low as possible.
We will NEVER stop it, we must continue to try to stop it and we can get rid of the groups of people who by accident of birth seem to have rights and wealth and titles that normal mortals do not have, normal people have to strive AGAINST the status quo to get on as the system is set up to suit those with hereditary wealth to retain it.
I do think and I have travelled a lot of the world, Scots are a generous hard working group of people with quite a black sense of humour.
I think we are different, particularly nowadays to England and I do think we have a different outlook on life. Not much different but different.
Economically we can do much much better and if you can not see that with all the information out there then with respect you have not looked in the right places yet!!
The whole culture of the UK. Is based on the English Gentleman sort of propaganda and has been since the Duke of Wellington. It is a false charade.
I truly think that we will be better off, better educated and a fairer society and with the small numbers we have that goal is easier to achieve, particularly as we have seen the corruption of the UK in the last forty years.
At the end of the day if I am going to be fucked by someone, then I would rather be fucked by my own politicians because I am closer to them in every way even geographically so I feel I can do more to correct any faults that come along.
Good luck with your research.
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Post by notanimby on Jan 12, 2014 16:11:40 GMT -1
As the debate has progressed, we now enter the murky waters of 'corporate deals, govt subsidies and so on.' I have to ask this question. Do those who support Independence truly believe (hand on hearts stuff) that this position will change because of Independence?I am going to stick my hand up and say 'No.' And that's why I've been asking questions about Independence - as I think the 'utopia' of the fairer society is a mere definition and will never be achieved. Why? I think all govts do deals, all 'Treasuries' court business, unfair societies will always be with us - as someone will always find a way to screw the system or skirt around legislation. I don't think that any govt can deliver a fairer society, because society won't tolerate it. I know this appears to be negative but if we 'give' to one group of people, we are viewed as 'taking' from another group. It's not about fairness, it's not about equality - what I think those who want Independence are looking for is; transparency, integrity and accountability - if I've summed up this whole thread and I fear that will be a disappointment for many. Yes I do G, although in saying that it won't be a Utopian paradise. We have the opperchancity to start afresh, a written constitution & Bill of Rights will be the foundation It would be rather naive to think that there won't be political and corporate chicanery going on, but we, being smaller wil have a better chance of countering it, seeing it and doing something about it For example, there will be no "cash for peerages" as they won't be available, no gongs for political gain, no unelected peers deciding what's what - that's a good enough start for me Some of the other things you mention can be sorted but they will take time, this is a long-haul exercise |
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