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Post by bormes on Aug 1, 2014 6:33:16 GMT -1
We need reminding at times, fair comment Oz.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2014 0:24:20 GMT -1
I don't see anyone here defending Hamas, Oz.
But most of us seem to be agreed that Israel is punishing, no, make that MURDERING, huge numbers of Palestinian civilians in a completely disproportionate response to a few terrorist rockets.
Who is arming Israel? Guess what. The US and the UK. Who's governments are both making lily=livered *right-on* meaningless statements about the humanitarian crisis!
I agree with you, Bormes, that Hamas should lay off and take the moral high-ground. In theory.
But like all wars, you're going to get hot=heads who want an eye for an eye and are beyond sense. It's a never-ending spiral of revenge attacks, it's just that Israel do (to me) seem intent on brutally crushing everyone and anyone in their path.
And I (for one) despise their government for doing that. I want to see serious sanctions on Israel. Isolate them, just as we did South Africa. The world is watching and I doesn't like what it sees...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2014 1:00:16 GMT -1
So its back to this They are evil and Israel is on front line No, it's NOT back to that, Oz. To compare what's going on now with Nazi Germany is just ridiculous. I and millions of others are actively boycotting Israeli goods NOT because they are Jews but because of the brutal actions of their government. Israel is illegally occupying land that doesn't belong to them. They are denying democracy to the Palestinian people. RUTHLESSLY and MURDEROUSLY. If anyone else is similarly minded to not support Israel's industries, check out the barcode of everything you buy. If it starts with 729, it's Israeli.
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Post by ozneil on Aug 2, 2014 2:33:46 GMT -1
So its back to this No, it's NOT back to that, Oz. To compare what's going on now with Nazi Germany is just ridiculous. I and millions of others are actively boycotting Israeli goods NOT because they are Jews but because of the brutal actions of their government. Israel is illegally occupying land that doesn't belong to them. They are denying democracy to the Palestinian people. RUTHLESSLY and MURDEROUSLY. If anyone else is similarly minded to not support Israel's industries, check out the barcode of everything you buy. If it starts with 729, it's Israeli. Oh so its 729 & Israel now in lieu of "Juden" and the star of David. You have advanced but still persecuting Jews I repeat HAMAS and other arab acronyms have vowed to drive the Jews into the sea and wipe them from the face of the earth. No doubt you have looked at the little videos I have posted showing the celebrations of victorious Islamic fanatics. Image that happening in Israel or even worse UK. Dont say it wouldnt you have already seen it in UK. Israel is by no means blame free but they must protect their people and to do that they must persuade HAMAS and others that if they attack Israel they will come off second best. They are doing that ruthlessly. They have to convince HAMAS to stop. I dont know if its "murderously" to defend one's people against murderous random attacks from an enemy that uses human shields. (Martyrs to the cause) Israel has no need to agree to a temporary cease fire but they do and it is broken each time by more rocket fire from Gaza Now what would YOU have them do? Negotiate? You gorra be joking you cant negotiate with fanaticsand been done umpteen times Cut off aid to Israel? Let ISIS or similar over-run Israel. Be genocide on a massive scale equalling that of Hitler (6 Million Jews) Pass another UN resolution? What number would that be? Send in peacekeepers? done that about as much use as a chocolate tea pot Say there must be another way and boycott Jewish shops? that'll show them? and if it doesnt you can smash a few windows to emphasis it. Pray to god/allah/gaiai or however that the arab mums and dads start loving their kids more that they hate Israel
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Post by bormes on Aug 2, 2014 7:36:57 GMT -1
Your last comment Oz is the right one. I will not go on and on about the crazies bombing Israeli school buses nor about how a huge percentage of the ground taken was after Israel had been attacked AGAIN and not just by one country, by several countries, that is how they took the Golan Heights after a furious battle. It is difficult nay nearly impossible for Westerners who are too young to remember WW2 to understand Israel is as cut off as we in the UK were by Hitler. Now we bombed his cities and we were trying to bonb military targets but we killed millions by accidentlt bombing the fuck out of them, however we were in a survival mode, AS IS ISRAEL NOW. I am NOT defending Israel, I am trying to remind my friends on here that the HATRED of the Jews from countries who do NOT want peace, they want Israel DESTROYED COMPLETELY, A HOLOCAUST ON THEM!!!! Now that is very hard to negotiate with I think all might agree with that? The Paestinian people DO have a grudge, justifyiably but mainly because of their leaders attacking Israel and Israel were put there by the West so we in the West MUST help sove the problem. The FIRST thing is to STOP attacking Israel, then overseen by the West repatriations or compensations, large ones and both sides will lose things but that must happen if peace is to be won. Remenber everywhere people live with only a few exceptions have had war for their land but eventually settle down. Settle down and move on, take the compensation, bury your hatred and keep your children safe, as Oz rightly wrote, love your kids more than you hate Israel, then there is a chance. After all, they are all the SAME RACE, JUST A DIFFERENT RELIGION!!!!
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Post by celyn on Aug 3, 2014 20:41:26 GMT -1
Oh so its 729 & Israel now in lieu of "Juden" and the star of David. You have advanced but still persecuting Jews Well,that's not actually true, is it? Who is this "you" who is persecuting Jews?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2014 22:07:31 GMT -1
No, it's NOT back to that, Oz. To compare what's going on now with Nazi Germany is just ridiculous. I and millions of others are actively boycotting Israeli goods NOT because they are Jews but because of the brutal actions of their government. Israel is illegally occupying land that doesn't belong to them. They are denying democracy to the Palestinian people. RUTHLESSLY and MURDEROUSLY. If anyone else is similarly minded to not support Israel's industries, check out the barcode of everything you buy. If it starts with 729, it's Israeli. Oh so its 729 & Israel now in lieu of "Juden" and the star of David. You have advanced but still persecuting Jews I repeat HAMAS and other arab acronyms have vowed to drive the Jews into the sea and wipe them from the face of the earth. No doubt you have looked at the little videos I have posted showing the celebrations of victorious Islamic fanatics. Image that happening in Israel or even worse UK. Dont say it wouldnt you have already seen it in UK. Israel is by no means blame free but they must protect their people and to do that they must persuade HAMAS and others that if they attack Israel they will come off second best. They are doing that ruthlessly. They have to convince HAMAS to stop. I dont know if its "murderously" to defend one's people against murderous random attacks from an enemy that uses human shields. (Martyrs to the cause) Israel has no need to agree to a temporary cease fire but they do and it is broken each time by more rocket fire from Gaza Now what would YOU have them do? Negotiate? You gorra be joking you cant negotiate with fanaticsand been done umpteen times Cut off aid to Israel? Let ISIS or similar over-run Israel. Be genocide on a massive scale equalling that of Hitler (6 Million Jews) Pass another UN resolution? What number would that be? Send in peacekeepers? done that about as much use as a chocolate tea pot Say there must be another way and boycott Jewish shops? that'll show them? and if it doesnt you can smash a few windows to emphasis it. Pray to god/allah/gaiai or however that the arab mums and dads start loving their kids more that they hate Israel Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote, Oz. The reason I am boycotting Israeli goods has nothing to do with religion or creed. Here's a very simple question for you and it only requires a YES or NO answer: Do you believe the Israeli response is proportionate? YES or NO
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Post by ozneil on Aug 4, 2014 0:24:41 GMT -1
Oh so its 729 & Israel now in lieu of "Juden" and the star of David. You have advanced but still persecuting Jews Well,that's not actually true, is it? Who is this "you" who is persecuting Jews? What isnt true, thta the Jews are being targetted? "You" is just my poor command of English.
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Post by ozneil on Aug 4, 2014 0:33:53 GMT -1
Oh so its 729 & Israel now in lieu of "Juden" and the star of David. You have advanced but still persecuting Jews I repeat HAMAS and other arab acronyms have vowed to drive the Jews into the sea and wipe them from the face of the earth. No doubt you have looked at the little videos I have posted showing the celebrations of victorious Islamic fanatics. Image that happening in Israel or even worse UK. Dont say it wouldnt you have already seen it in UK. Israel is by no means blame free but they must protect their people and to do that they must persuade HAMAS and others that if they attack Israel they will come off second best. They are doing that ruthlessly. They have to convince HAMAS to stop. I dont know if its "murderously" to defend one's people against murderous random attacks from an enemy that uses human shields. (Martyrs to the cause) Israel has no need to agree to a temporary cease fire but they do and it is broken each time by more rocket fire from Gaza Now what would YOU have them do? Negotiate? You gorra be joking you cant negotiate with fanaticsand been done umpteen times Cut off aid to Israel? Let ISIS or similar over-run Israel. Be genocide on a massive scale equalling that of Hitler (6 Million Jews) Pass another UN resolution? What number would that be? Send in peacekeepers? done that about as much use as a chocolate tea pot Say there must be another way and boycott Jewish shops? that'll show them? and if it doesnt you can smash a few windows to emphasis it. Pray to god/allah/gaiai or however that the arab mums and dads start loving their kids more that they hate Israel Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote, Oz. The reason I am boycotting Israeli goods has nothing to do with religion or creed. Here's a very simple question for you and it only requires a YES or NO answer: Do you believe the Israeli response is proportionate? YES or NO Israel is a Jewish state so by boycotting Israeli good you are hurting Jews. Yes, though it takes 2 to tango. Arabs have sworn to destroy Israel so to survive the Israelis must fight. It is a very complex question and Israel must be guaranteed a home land. Until that is done they must prove unequivocally that if attacked the attacker will come off second best. The harder the attacker is hit the less likely it is for attackers to risk attacking again and more chance of peace. The quick way to get peace is for Palestinians to control HAMAS and stop the attacks Remember Palestine didnt exist as a country till 192?? courtesy of the League of Nations. Up till 1918 it was a region of the Ottoman Empire If you want to sheet home responsibility try blaming Balfour
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 1:50:49 GMT -1
You've skirted around a direct answer the the very basic question I asked, Oz.
Do you believe the Israeli response is proportionate?
YES
or
NO
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Post by ozneil on Aug 4, 2014 2:09:18 GMT -1
You've skirted around a direct answer the the very basic question I asked, Oz. Do you believe the Israeli response is proportionate? YES or NO OK Define proportionate in this context Do you mean was it sufficient to to stop HAMAS and have them agree and hold to a truce? then answer is NO , so far. It seems every other means has been tried and failed. What other means do they have? (see above) PS I still think whole thing is absolutely dreadful and horrifying and wish to god they (both sides) would stop!
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Post by bormes on Aug 4, 2014 7:08:36 GMT -1
As the last man to fight in WW1 said, Have the leaders armed put them in a field and let them settle their differences, That would still stand even in this complex warfare. Arabs have been murdering their own people since time began, they kill each other regardless of gender or age. Just like us if it suits. (Carpet bombing Germany as one example, Nagasaki and Hiroshima for another) We are having all this publicity and talk from politicians, however I doubt very much if anything will be done. People have short memories Israel has been attacked constantly both in Israel and Israelis abroad.(athletes in Germany) Israeli children are being killed by terrorists too. Israel has the technology and weaponry that hamas does not, therefore why should they not use it? It is like us using Drones, there are people who object to that! Why should we not use Drones it saves our young people's lives. Using Drones means around 200 dead terrorists to probably no dead on our side and believe me sometimes the drone operators kill innocents, wedding parties children and sometimes they kill children with the fragmentation of the weapon system. Now it is war so we tend to say that is terrible but we continue to kill the terrorists, quite rightly, we are at war with them. The seemingly targeting of children in schools is possibly and I think probably accidental as hamas DO HIDE NEAR CIVILIANS, DELIBERATELY. The weapons system the Israelis use against the rocket fire calculates where the heat of a fired rocket came from and they try to triangulate the position but they are not always that accurate and other times it is mistakes, so NO I do not think the Israeli soldiers are deliberately targeting children. I have seen and been on the ground during fighting when Arabs have had children run towards an area where they KNOW, our troops are and they had the kids throw stones and petrol bombs in the hope we would open fire on the kids giving them a PR coupe. Heavens they even had kids do it in Northern Ireland, the ira are past masters at PR!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 20:40:10 GMT -1
It'd be pretty difficult for Hamas not to be among civilians, given there's two million souls crammed into a narrow strip of land that measures pretty much the same as Edinburgh city out to North Berwick. Can you IMAGINE the 'outrage* if such wealthy citizens were equally targeted?
To my way of thinking the Israeli GOVERNMENT are only getting away with their crimes against humanity because a) they're just *maybe* giving it the age-old downtrodden thing and b) neither the US OR the UK governments are condemning their actions.
And why would they, they both profit from the arms sales, because armament suppliers CONTRIBUTE to their partly political election efforts!
The United Nations is powerless to act without endorsement/sanctions from US and UK governments. But I think we will see European countries rise up against that and make their presence known.
Personally, I want AWAY from UK and US foreign policies that lead us into pointless, destructive conflicts.
And in post-YES Scotland we'll be there to help out with humanitarian aid. It's time we got sane.
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Post by ozneil on Aug 6, 2014 21:54:17 GMT -1
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 23:19:19 GMT -1
Oz. Look at the bloody statistics.
You can post up any old thing off the internet that proves fuck-all. But let's look at the reality and not hide behind *selected press articles*.
Do you think Israel's government has acted disproportionately or not?
It's either YES
or
NO.
I know you enjoy the odd wind-up here but this subject is actually too serious for that.
Good night, and I wish you and yours peace.
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